Dealing with estrangement - Q&A

Hithere

What are the ideal steps for reconciliating estranged parties, both on estranged and estrangee sides?

I don’t believe there is a one size fits all, communication is key, of course many of us have found that communication has broken down completely. One important thing to remember is, your grandchildren never forget you. They are in an impossible position, they love both their parents and grandparents, they find that if they talk about us, they will get into trouble or it upsets their parent. So they learn very quickly to say nothing, but you are still in their hearts. Many grandchildren do seek out their grandparents when they are older, and I know only too well, that is of no comfort if your
grandchildren are still young. The memories that you may have made with them are never forgotten. As I have said in a previous answer, be led by the children. Absolutely don’t say anything derogatory about their parents, they are still their parents.

3nanny6

I do not feel isolated and some days I do not give myself time to be alone, I have several supportive family members that always urge me to look forward with my life and to make the best of things.

It is still early days for me and the estrangement has been for four months, the difficulty within the relationship with my daughter had been happening for a long time until it seems there was nothing left to do but just stop seeing each other.
My grand-children are 7 (almost 8) 6 ( almost 7) and 2. and because of the breakdown with my daughter I was then denied contact with the grand-children.
Christmas 2019 was the first year of not seeing them since the eldest has been born and I coped better than I had expected maybe because I knew there was nothing else I could do. I had been preparing their presents throughout the year and had everything so the third week of January I sent everything to her by another relative which I know she received. I thought she may send me a small thank-you card or perhaps a call but still nothing.

I had played the role of grand-mother in the children's lives
and helped my daughter a lot and although I know I have to accept the situation not a day passes when they are not in my mind.

I am still at the point when if I am shopping or doing something like that and I meet someone I know locally they will always ask me "where are your grand-children?" are they okay? and I am still at a loss as what to say, I just reply "Yes they are okay" and then hurry off. It bothers me when I dwell on the thought of never seeing those children again but only time is a healer so one day at a time is all I do.

Thank you for your question. You will of heard estrangement and alienation being called a ‘living bereavement’ and it is just that, you face the different stages of grief just as you do when someone you love dies, the difference is we mourn someone who is still alive. Support from friends and family are vital,
and I am pleased to read you have both. I have a problem when grandparents are told to ‘move on,’ I don’t think you ever move on, I think we have to try and ‘let it be.’ I like where you say, I had played the role of grand-mother,’ and yes you did. We can not be responsible for other people's behaviour, but we are responsible for our own. When grandparents call our Helpline, they will often say they feel ashamed, I think it maybe because as a grandparent we think we can make things
better, but when we realise we can’t it is so hard. Many grandparents when asked about their grandchildren, will say they don’t have any.

Yennifer

I hope this is OK to ask. I was alienated from grandparents {and other family} by my mother. I still saw them very occasionally because my mother wanted to be a benificary in the will but she took me less than once a year and told me lots of horror stories about them which made me stop going at all. As an adult it makes me sad as I remember warm smiling faces and they have been gone a long time.

My mother was severely emotionally and sometimes physically abusive to me and as an adult I came to see how often she lied and how stories changed. My own children and I are now estranged from her and my children have been part of and happy with that decision.

What I would like to ask is, what do you think of proposed changes to grandparents rights and how can they be implimented while still protecting children like mine from abusive people?

Thank you for your question, and firstly I would like to say how sorry

I am that you had to face estrangement from your grandparents, the relationship between grandchild and grandparent is unique and a privilege. However uncomfortable it might be, we have to also acknowledge that for a variety of reasons there may well be good reasons to estrange your children, particularly if there is a safeguarding issue. The safety of children must always come first. The proposal for a change in the law is not for grandparents to have rights, but for grandchildren to have rights to a continuing loving and caring relationship after a family breakdown in all its forms. In France it is included in the Civil Code. When I answer questions I try to be as honest as I can, and in truth I believe we are looking at a cultural change, so that it becomes socially unacceptable to deny contact, just as it is for drink driving, or for getting in a car and not putting your seat belt on. Children need to be educated from a very early age, that when they have their own children, they have a responsibility to allow all family relationships to continue, should their own relationship break down. It is about putting the children first, not putting the adults first.

Starlady

Fortunately, I'm not estranged from anyone at the moment. But I have a few unfortunate friends IRL who are estranged from their AC, CIL, and GC. For that reason, this sentence caught my attention:

"Jane was reunited with her granddaughter in 2018."

I'm wondering how this came about? And what is Jane's advice, if any, for other GPs who want to reunite w/ their GC?

Thank you for your question. Our GD made the decision for herself when she was 17, she contacted us via Instagram initially, a phone call followed, our son who had also been estranged from his daughter for 11 years went to visit her
ASAP, she lives at one end of the country we at the other. She then came to visit us, and found that her family had increased somewhat in those 11 years. She had a half-sister, and two twin cousins. I can honestly say, after some enormous butterflies whilst I waited for her to arrive, as she came through our gate it was as though she had never been away. Older of course, but I opened my arms and she fell into them. People ask me if we talked about the years that had past, I always say, you must be led by your grandchild, They let you know when they have
questions.

Bentleyfox and Flygirl my heart goes out to you and all GP's who are estranged from their GC or fear estrangement when you've got to know and love them.

I really believe we are fortunate that we never knew our GC. It's painful but is so much more painful for you I think.

Really empathise with you Bentleyfox. It's heartbreaking for those of us experiencing all this. My son has always been distant, even as a child, but I made excuses as he is in the spectrum. But since meeting his partner, who wants nothing to do with us at all, (and moreover does everything to make sure we have no opportunities to build a healthy relationship with our grandsons), it has all gone up to an entirely different, cruel and nasty level. We have tried everything over 10 years, but all to no avail.

By hanging in there by a thread, for the sake of not losing contact with your dear grandchildren, you are further enabling her abusive and manipulative behaviour towards you, and worse, she can use them as pawns in the game. A familiar pattern we have encountered... (For us, we have now admitted defeat, as they can't or won't see any other point of view). We have finally realised that we simply cannot be minimised and treated so badly any more. But.... I'd be lying if I said it doesn't hurt like hell. No easy answers here.

I just need to find peace within, but really don't know how.
Dreadful, isn't it.

I am not entirely estranged from my elder daughter who lives with her family in-the USA but it’s close. We now only communicate by WhatsApp. Her father and I are divorced and both remarried but i suspect she has a good relationship with her stepmother. I am concerned that if I loose contact wit my daughter Iwill lose my grandsons too . I was very cruelly treated the last time I visited and suspect it was designed to put me off ever going agains and it has. I really do not know what to do as I suspect she will poison my grandsons against me eventually. The rift between us began when she was about 14 and she is 43 this year. I was a ‘bad mother’ and ‘it cannot be fixed’she has said. Its has broken my heart.

You really should read posts properly before commenting OutsideDave.

It was our ES who said he didn't want his future in law's to have any contact with any children they (he and his future wife) may have.

It was his wife who estranged her p's and the conversation I referred too was the one with our now ES about their future children, not his wife's estrangement from her parents.

I haven't said anything about an opinion I may or may not have had about his wife's decision to estrange her parents. I didn't "second guess his support of his wife's decision to estrange from her parents". I really don't understand how you manage to read things into a post that aren't there!!.

So, you felt the need to offer an opinion to you son on a relationship between your DIL and her foo and a decision to go NC? Why?

And I didn’t say I assume you did a reasonable job as parents, I said i assume YOU felt did a reasonable job. Which was correct- you felt you did a good job, which is why I feel it strange you felt like it was was necessary to second guess his support of his wife’s decisions to estrange from her parentsZ

If giving an an opinion is seen as weighing "in on an AC's marriage or IL relationships" then I'm glad to be out of it and wonder how on earth parents of married AC manage TBH.
OutsideDave.

You are right to assume that we did a reasonable job as parents, in fact we did better than reasonable. For 27 years we had an excellent relationship with our now ES. When he was older it was one of mutual respect and an accepted openness from both sides to express our opinions. If he hadn't wanted my opinion on that particular issue, he wouldn't have discussed it with me.

Our ES didn't go no contact with his in law's, it was his wife's decision prior to their marriage and is a pattern of behaviour she has repeated on more than one occasion.

Our ES didn't have a problem with us, his entire family (apart from the little contact he has with his brother) and friends he'd has from childhood until he married. He was never in a FOG with his own FOO.

I didn't expect you to understand because you always seem to hold the view that AC don't estrange from loving, caring and decent parents. Well they do and there are numerous examples here on GN that demonstrate that.

Foo= family of origin
One exaplanation of FOG here kimsaeed.com/2014/02/06/how-the-narcissist-keeps-us-in-a-fog/

What on earth is FOG and FOO please?

I truly can’t understand feeling it appropriate to weigh in on an AC’s marriage or IL relationships. Assuming you feel you did a reasonable job as a parent, if your AC said ‘we’ve made this decision that doesn’t impact you at all’ it seems strange to intervene in something that isn’t your relationship, and rather then being in the corner of your child you are more interested in the feelings of the other grandparents. Perhaps that’s why it’s not uncommon for folks to go NC with one set of Ils first, then the other- upon the discovery that the first set is toxic, the reaction elicited by that change by the other set is often a clue that a relationship previously believed to be respectful is in fact not so respectful and has its own problems. It’s always hard to see someone think they had an IL problem only then realize they’ve been in the FOG with their own FOO; but it just looked different in their own family.

Hi Starlady, the email address would not be linked to the children in any way, or even by name. An email address can consist of anything...for example [email protected] would know your true identity from that? The way I understand it, for example, it could be set up as a private second email account for either me, or my daughter, or both of us. Only I/we would have the password until such time in the future that my (then older) grandchildren make contact with me.... (if only!) when I would pass it to them for access to the email account. In the meantime, we shall be able to send messages and blogs to this new account, when we feel like it..(say, if I/we just want to put into words what we are feeling, or thinking about them on their birthdays, telling them about our days out, etc.) Just as if they were there with us. Then in the future, hopefully, we shall be able to supply them with the email address and password and they can then read our little diary, created just for them over the years, if they so wish. It will just be an untraceable account until then as there will be no direct hints in the email address and they'd have no idea we had set it up. (Anyway we haven't set it up yet, but my daughter says it's simple to do. Will advise!)

As for DILs mother, she has been heavily involved in the GCs lives from Day 1. I/we have absolutely no problem with this at all. In the normal scheme of things, daughters normally gravitate towards their mums for help and I totally get that. It is not a competition for attention and we are not jealous people. However, the whole set up/family dynamic has been to exclude us. We have never been invited to be involved at all, to do all the "normal " grandparent things. As I stated in my first text on this forum. There is a very unhealthy undercurrent. I once duscovered a lovely picnic spot next to a river with boat trips, tea rooms, etc., and suggested to my DIL we should all take the boys there for a day out! (Trying to do something normal).... "Wonderful, she replied. It sounds great. The boys would love that! As would I" (this was during one of the rare times a few years ago she was dangling a carrot, attempting to be friendly, only to snatch the carrot away again). Next thing?? She, her mum, and sister took the boys there for their day out, posted it all over social media with lovely photos, and hadn't asked us to join them.
Enough said.
Thanks for your replies and support. It means a lot.

I think it's feasible that one set of GP's wouldn't be comfortable with the decision to deny the other set of GP's their GC OutsideDave, thereby questioning the reasoning behind that decision.

As I said in my last post, that's what I did and not from the perspective of an EP/EGP as at that time we weren't estranged and weren't GP's.

I knew our ES's p's.i.l. for several years before he met their D and knew her mother very well. I was aware of 'issues' within that family but didn't believe that not allowing them any contact with GC was a reasonable response from our son.

I would have understood and supported a decision for only supervised contact but would not have felt comfortable with them not being allowed any contact whatsoever. Had this been the case of course I realise that apart from asking them to reconsider their decision, there would have been nothing I could do about it.

IMO the accounts we read here on GN are evidence that there isn't always good reason to totally deny GP's their GC and those children, their GP's.

ForestsLakesandMountains, I know I'm not Jane Jackson, but I just want to be sure I understand your question. Are you referring to a situation where the parents are divorced/separated? And the non-custodial parent is an abuser who is not allowed contact w/ their kids? Are you saying that in that case, the GPs who are parents of the abuser might lose contact w/ the GC, as well? Sort of a "collateral damage" thing?

Wow, Flygirl. It definitely seems as if they just told you and DH about the Baptism, maybe so you couldn't say they didn''t. Also, it appears as if they weren't sure whether they were going to give you the time, at first, and then decided last minute that they would. So sad.

I still don't fully understand about the email idea. If the children receive emails from you, won't they show up in some sort of Inbox? And if the parents check their Inboxes, won't they see them? Perhaps I'm ignorant about this, but I don't really get how this would work. Since the therapist suggested it, however, I imagine it's feasible.

Sorry to hear how controlling DIL's mum seems to be. This may, indeed, be part of the problem. As you say, she may be directly involved in it. However, it may also be that it's hard enough dealing w/ just her. Your son and DIL may simply feel they can't have to deal w/ any other parents/GPs. Not fair to you and DH, I know, but that might be the issue.

Sparkling, you are spot-on when you mention the loneliness of estrangement. The realisation that your child really doesn't care whether you're alive or dead - or even if you may be seriously ill. When you think back to when they were young and all the love, care, fun and protection you naturally give them/share with them as parents. I would never in my wildest dreams have imagined this tragic, toxic outcome later in life. It's totally alien to me, having come from a loving home, as did my hubby. Don't get me wrong, as parents we expect no "reward" as such for our investment in our children, but surely, just to he included in their adult lives, and the lives of our grandchildren, would be reward enough? - and yet sadly we are being denied that, too.

My son was on the autistic spectrum. In 1982 when he was diagnosed at the age of 2, precious little was known about the condition. Many "experts" at the time told us they knew what was "best" for him, (and some even accused us of not knowing what was best for him!). Many of their suggestions just did not sit right with us. They were reading from a textbook and did not know our child and his abilities like we did.
I may have been swayed by them, had I been a single parent, but my husband was stronger and understood my son and his needs. Together, we fought his corner, tooth and nail, often going against their advice. By the time he was senior school age he had progressed beyond what they all had predicted. He went on to Uni, got a degree, was fairly comfortable in social situations, has a good job and his own company now as well, and as you know, has a partner and children. Many people patted us on the back and said we had "worked wonders"... but of course, it wasn't us, he did it all by himself. We had only helped to create the environment where we knew he would flourish. That is why all this hurts so much now. Especially knowing that his eldest son is quite severely autistic. We can see him struggling to make sense of life around him. He says very little even though he is now 10 years old. No real conversation at all, no "chit chat", just monosyllabic answers. We could be such a great support to them, if only we were invited and included into their lives. Alas it is not to be, for whatever reason.

Starlady, I am not sure we were actually invited to the baptism as such, to be honest! We received a text about one to two weeks before the actual ceremony, which was more of a statement...i.e. "Jack is being baptised on....at....church". There was no mention of the time of the ceremony. We had to ask about the timings several times (by text...as they never answer their phones when they see it's us on the end of the line). We were kept hanging until 48 hours before the baptism, when we were finally 'allowed 'to know the time. It's all played out as a bit of a game, to keep us hanging. The fact that we had had the original text, we interpreted as meaning we were actually "allowed" to attend. I think both 1) and 2) scenarios were relevant. There had obviously been lengthy discussion as to whether or not we would be invited back to celebrate afterwards (obviously not) and I am sure also that they wanted to do the bare minimum as to our involvement...hence not knowing until so late, when plans had obviously been in place for some time. I believe them both to be true. Maybe because they think we would have found out about it if they had kept quiet and not told us?

Regarding the e-mail idea....
As you know, my lovely daughter has also been cut out of her brother's life (and nephews' lives) because she dared to point out a few years ago how deeply sad the situation was making everyone (at the time our parents were alive and also affected by their attitude, too, rarely seeing their great grandchildren and not undrrstanding any of it). She has had a lot to deal with lately, including dealing with the venomous message we both received at Christmas. Unlike her, but she had a one-off session with a counsellor to try and make sense of things.
The counsellor has suggested that my son's partner is definitely a covert narcissist, playing cruel games, and possibly my son is too....(or he goes along with it as he won't rock the boat). It was the counsellor that suggested the email set-up, so that we can all write little blogs about our lives, or if we are just thinking about them, to write it down as a message. It is unlikely that the email addresses would be discovered, as they can be obscure and only we would have the password.

Regarding what the other grandparents think about the situation....
In our case, right from the "get go" when the first pregnancy was announced back in 2009, we got the feeling that DIL's mother wanted control...and that did not include us. Even a day or two after his birth, we waited patiently for a couple of hours to see our new grandson at the hospital, whilst a steady stream of all their aunts, uncles and cousins from afar went in to see him before us..saying when they left "oh, sorry, haven't you seen him yet?"
DILs father keeps out of it all (he had to wait patiently outside, too). There had been an acrimonious divorce. However, he sees the boys regularly now. He keeps his thoughts to himself. DIL's mother is not approachable and we feel she could be behind it all. After all, behaviour breeds behaviour.

could this be complicated if the grandparents are parents to the other abusive parent who is no longer allowed contact with the grandchildren?

I only feel isolated when say the GP or social services have asked where is your family, when say needing post op support.

Otherwise, I have accepted that my estrangement from my DGChildren and AC will not change. I have resolved about 5 years ago, after lovely support on GN, to not upset myself any further about the situation. I refuse to let it spoil the life I have left.

I am happy to support others. In order to normalise estrangement, it’s important to know that there are about a million estranged grandparents in the U.K. It helps to know we are not alone.

And when someone asks me, tries to maybe make me feel ashamed about the situation, I quote that figure.

I don’t know that I follow smileless- why would it depend on what they had been told; or felt there were valid reasons? You don’t think it’s feasible that a set of GPs wouldn’t just trust their AC and their CIL to make reasonable decisions, and assume that if they made that choice there had to be a good reason, regardless of what they were told about that decision making process or whether or not they knew the other set of GPs? That’s....interesting.

Yes it is possible that the GP's who do see their GC agree with the other GP's not doing so OutsideDave. It would I suppose depend on what they'd been told and whether they actually knew the other GP's and felt there were genuine concerns/reasons for denying contact.

Before our ES got married and of course before we were estranged, his wife had all but cut her parents off. He told me if they ever had children he wouldn't allow her parents to see them.

I told him I didn't agree with him. If he had concerns he could insist any children were never left alone with them, but they would be their GC and IMO it would be wrong to deny them contact.

Ironic of course as it's us who aren't allowed any contact whatsoever with our GC. Had things gone the other way I wouldn't have felt comfortable with the other GP's not being allowed to see their GC. There'd have been nothing I could do about that of course, apart from asking them to reconsider, which is what I would have done.

Sparkling.

The grandchildren will grow up and most likely, move away, their own parents won't be seeing so much of them, that's how it goes. What you are left with when you are estranged, is that lonliness of not having your child care whether you are alive or dead. There are few people who can ever forget their own babies as toddlers, children and all the closeness and love they shared, then to be cut adrift. Estranged. If you have your partner you have someone, but if either of you die you are completely alone, you feel as if you have no future, unless there are other children or family you are close to. It's so bad for your mental health, your
sense of worth. I wish there was a campaign highlighting this situation, but people won't speak out about it, it would be as if admitting you failed, when in fact most have tried everything to reestablish contact. It's almost as if it's a taboo subject. That's why Gransnet is so valuable.

Smileless isn’t it just as likely they agree with the decision, or; even if they don’t - respect their AC enough to make the right decisions for their family?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.