The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.

Your link Holyhannah is just devastating. I've never understood the photo proof that gets shown of "wonderful childhoods". Of course children smile and are happy when they get a break from abuse or of course they smile when the person they are terrified of tells them too. Inside they must be thinking/hoping that perhaps today it stops, perhaps they really do want me to smile. Perhaps if I am happy they will be happy. These are my parents, they must love me, I love them.

I've been sent many "happy" family photos as if I don't remember what came before or after.

I am one of the lucky ones, these children deserved so much better and I can't believe we live in a world where parents are out there physically, sexually and emotionally abusing little children and getting away with it because no one seems to notice until its too late. Their lives have been taken, they have taken their own lives they have become what happened to them or trying to heal like the rest of us, traumatised but not believed and told to "get over it".

Imagine being that smug person not believing another adults story of abuse, laughing at it, invalidating them, trying to somehow prove them bad because... Who knows really, maybe they have been accused of abuse and cannot accept it.

That is not a good person.

If I didn't have the tools from healing to enable me to spot those not good people much quicker than I could have growing up in it, imagine the awful harm they could do. Imagine the harm they do to other victims of abuse, uncaring because they believe there are "sides" and we are some sort of enemy available to scapegoat and use as an emotional punchbag.

People think we sit and armchair diagnose our parents... That we read an article like that, decide it is the issue and bam. Bye parent.

Could not be further from the truth.

We spend lifetimes just not understanding:

Why if I say something "wrong" am I punished for a great deal of time but if they say something wrong I'm just sensitive or it was a joke or they didn't even say it?

Why do they treat x completely differently to me?

Why am I suffering mental health issues when my family say everything is great and wonderful?

Why am I so unhappy around these people but have good relationships elsewhere?

Why are they ruining or ignoring my special events?

Why don't I feel loved and wanted?

I could go on forever but this type of article doesn't push us into thinking it is true, it just gives a name to all the problems we were already aware of.

rosecarmel -- Let me try to reply to each and ouch. That list is triggering...

1. -- In my 'family' my 'mom' would say, "Don't do what others' do/tell/want you to do. That makes You a sheep." Also my 'mom' -- "If you don't act like 'everyone else'/act "differently", no one will 'like' You." So yes. Not only was acceptance "conditional" it was also every changing.

2. -- "YOU are 'lesser'... Know your 'place'."

3. Someone Must Be Blamed for Problems -- That needed repeating... Abused children become hyper-vigilant and add my Autism to 'the mix'? I had "skills". Unfortunately those 'skills' added to my Scapegoat abuse.

For example -- If the house-hold vehicles broke down/got damaged etc. it created a lot of anger/chaos in the home. So I learned at a young age about cars/how they ran/what sounded okay and what sounded 'wrong' so I could "help" the car to not "stop working" that made the 'adults' so angry. So when I would hear the car making those "bad noises" I would point them out/say, "I hear 'that part' starting to fail again..."

Was this skill liked/accepted from the 'adults'? Nope. The car was broken and because I was the first to notice/see the car was breaking/broken it went like this... Denial -- "Well, I don't hear that..." Me (internally) -- "Well, 'that noise' usually gets louder the closer it gets to fail sooo..." out-loud, "You will soon..."

Now I'm being a 'smart-ass' and get "in trouble". Car breaks down... Now I'm in triple trouble. I pointed out the potential failure that was coming and was correct. Parent(s) denying what I 'heard' because they did not made them WRONG.

Where is all the anger aimed at? ME.

What makes it sadder still is the lack of mature adult thinking that vehicles require maintenance and DO break down... That doesn't mean there is someone/another human to blame and if there IS? Is it Me, the minor child or them who had the power to take the car to a mechanic after I had told THEM "The car is breaking again..."

The moral of that story is, the more the Scapegoat does/learns to help/improve the situations that cause the anger/rage etc. from the 'parent', the more anger and rage projected back at the Scapegoat.

How dare I hear the car breaking before THEM... How dare I be right when the car fails and THEY didn't "listen" to ME...

4. -- "Mistakes, accidents, and weaknesses, even ones you take responsibility for, are cause for shaming treatment that can persist for years." -- This is a lot true. It is also why abusers cling to "I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement."

Abusers (from my experiences/perspective) were also abused themselves. That 'part' of them I DO empathize with/understand. Admitting you are "wrong" to another adult is making yourself vulnerable and difficult... It should be easy to admit to a child that You are/were "wrong" because innocent children love unconditionally (even when abused) and will forgive/continue to give love.

5. -- "You Must Take Sides" -- You are either an enabler or a victim to a Narcissistic abuser... For those that refuse to "take sides" or refuse to support the abuser? You are just as 'bad' as the Scapegoat...

6. -- "Renewable resources in healthy families, love and respect are limited to the narcissist and whomever else is deemed worthy, usually a favored "golden" child. Respect for one person means disrespect for another." -- The idea that every 'family member' deserves equal treatment in the way of basic common decency/respect does not exist in dysfunctional families.

7. -- "Only the narcissist has free rein to express feelings, have emotional reactions, and make demands." -- This is especially true where negative emotions are concerned... Abusers can get/be angry. THEY can react to what they perceive as insults etc. If their victim gives even a half-dose of how they (the abuser) would react to the same situation? "See! See!!! YOU are 'just like ME'!"

8. -- "Competition, Not Cooperation, Rules the Day" -- I must be really mentally ill because I have always tried to build/'fix' competition. I wanted a family/team/community/belonging... Not a competition. Abusers seem to want to make their victim-hood greater then those they victimize especially when comparing 'it' to a true "lesser" victim. Adult to adult abuse is 'bad' and IS damaging. Comparing that to the abuse a parent can inflict on a minor child? It's not even close.

9. -- "Even if everyone is suffering, they must smile for the family photo." -- Do not get Me or any other child abuse victim started on those happy 'family' pictures.

issendai.com/wp/estrangement/happy-face-happy-heart/

10/11/12 -- Every part true.

The 12 Dysfunctional Rules of the Narcissistic Family

Do these sound familiar?

1. Acceptance Is Conditional

To gain acceptance, children must comply with the family narrative and value system. Expressions of difference are rejected and pathologized.

article continues after advertisement

2. Submission Is Required

Everyone is expected to submit to the dominant narcissist’s authority, no matter how ignorant, arbitrary, cruel, or destructive it is.

3. Someone Must Be Blamed for Problems

When something bad happens, from a lost job to a spilled glass of milk, someone must be blamed for it. Typically there is a family scapegoat who is made to bear the main burden of the family’s problems, frustration, and unhappiness, as well as the dominant narcissist’s projected self-loathing.

4. Vulnerability Is Dangerous

Mistakes, accidents, and weaknesses, even ones you take responsibility for, are cause for shaming treatment that can persist for years.

5. You Must Take Sides

Just as there is always blame and shame, there are always sides, and if you are not on the dominant narcissist’s side you are wrong. Children often feel forced to choose between parents, siblings, and other family members.

6. There Is Never Enough Love and Respect to Go Around

Renewable resources in healthy families, love and respect are limited to the narcissist and whomever else is deemed worthy, usually a favored "golden" child. Respect for one person means disrespect for another.

7. Feelings Are Wrong

The feelings that make us human, help us connect and get our needs met, and protect us from harm are selfish and must be repressed. Only the narcissist has free rein to express feelings, have emotional reactions, and make demands.

8. Competition, Not Cooperation, Rules the Day

One-upmanship, favoritism, and constant comparison create a harshly competitive environment that undermines trust and breeds hostility and betrayal.

9. Appearances Are More Important Than Substance

Even if everyone is suffering, they must smile for the family photo.

10. Rage Is Normalized

Everyone is expected to swallow and endure the dominant narcissist’s irrational, explosive, and perhaps also violent rage. This may be magnified by other forms of mental illness and/or addiction.

11. Denial Is Rampant

To sustain the dominant narcissist’s control over the family, there is denial of:

abusive incidents;
the continual atmosphere of fear;
the ongoing mistreatment of the scapegoat; and
routine forms of neglect.

12. There Is No Safety

Although the scapegoat is targeted with the most abuse, everyone is on hyperalert because no one is safe from blame and rage.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202003/the-12-dysfunctional-rules-the-narcissistic-family

The comment sections for their videos provide comic relief and a soft place to fall-

I posted a link to this video in the other thread but will share it here too because I found it very helpful-

3 things the narc (mean people) wants from you:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx3V1RRoc_A

Holyhannah I listened to that cleaning yesterday and I will listen again because I took a lot from it. Thank you

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnSsx8ifAH8

The comments on this video also make a good read.

I don't think it would have mattered if I were a boy and my brother a girl. My mum never forgave my dad for leaving her and that was my first role as emotional punchbag. My brother or sister in this scenario was the product of the marriage that lasted (somehow).

I think it would have been a different kind of abuse because of the fundamental differences in sex.

For instance, my mum was jealous of me as a girl... As perceived competition for my stepdad (I know, utterly daft but she expressed it many times), as a younger version of her etc with the hair colour she had always wanted but couldn't achieve... I could go on.

If I were a boy, maybe it would be my partner who was the competition. But I guess the guilt trips, lying, hurtful comments and manipulation would be the same.

Worship at the alter of mum and accept her unjust wrath as a duty for crimes unknown

Smileless, I'm talking over the course of decades- If it were "intended" I think they had ample time lol ..

One of them went as far as to make plans- My children all altered their schedules to accomodate- The day came and went- No phone call, no text, no contact-

Starblaze, yes- Hours in large rental vehicles filled with sticky children and adults with their knees up to their chins or pretzeled in to fit- Road games and music and audio books and "are where there yets"- Tons of wonderful memories!

HolyHannah, can't say I never bought into the lip service, truly believing they would visit- I used to consider what might interest them: city, country, both- Just go with the flow-

Can't tell you how often I forget they're golden -- until reminded- I consider them less as time goes by-

I haven't got a favorite child- Or grandchild- We're a struggling family collectively, on the mend- Estrangement awaits around every bend- Whatever it takes for any one of us to heal, I embrace- Including my mountain of failures-

Smileless -- It goes a lot deeper then gender. For example, if a 'mom' thinks it is up to women to maintain communications and she only has sons, then she will quite often push/thrust that expectation onto the daughter-in-law.

When the daughter-in-law does not fulfill the role 'properly' the parent sometimes gets angry and that drives son and DiL further away... Or worse (like my in-laws) wanted to be able to treat me the same way they treated husband (their Scapegoat child). Obviously if I wasn't tolerating that from my 'family' I certainly wasn't going to with his, no matter how much I love Him.

I have seen that scenario play it too many times to count. My 'mom' wouldn't bow to her MiL so we only had limited contact with my dad's side. Just to keep up appearances and hope for a part of the estate... They need not have wasted their time. In true abuser fashion my granny divided the estate by how much chaos it could create. One sibling got the house, 2 got substantial cash payouts and my parents got the equivalent of cab-fare.

I agree it's a serious concern and enables a parent to be in denial that they are scapegoating one child ie their daughter and favouring their son, by making him the golden child.

When it comes to abusive parents there's always an excuse as to why the siblings are not equal. And yes, sometimes it is based on gender.

In my 'family' boys were good/could do no wrong and girls were bad. I was informed of this by my 'mom'.

Having differing exceptions of your children based on gender is a serious concern as is carrying the mentality in the first place.

Sometimes it's the difference of expectations from a son and a daughter. It's OK for son's not to put themselves out but not if it's a daughter.

The diffence between the scapegoat and the golden child can highlight things

I move here, no one ever drove to me, always me doing the donkey work with tired children/newborns in tow.

Golden child brother moves here and they come every week.

Still didn't come to me lol

Its enough to give you a complex until lots and lots of professional help

Sometimes though the intent is genuine at the time but never happens. Moving away, leaving a place of work 'we must keep in touch' but it rarely if ever happens.

Happens in families where there's no history of abuse; other things get in the way I guess but it can be hurtful all the same especially if you make the effort and they don't.

rosecarmel -- "Can anyone explain it?" -- Well yeah... It's lip service and "keeping up appearances". If they say, "Oh yes. We'll visit..." it shows they 'care' and can tell other people (and themselves) how 'good' they are for caring about you.

The problem is, abusers never 'cared' about you. If you move 'too far away' (either emotionally or geographically) then you are not an easy/convenient victim anymore. Abusers don't want a real/healthy relationship. They want their Scapegoat/source of supply back. It's not worth the work to pretend that they care about you when you are not 'paying out' enough.

To absolve one's self from any responsibility because in truth, they just can't be bothered perhaps.

Or perhaps the intention is/was never real to begin with so talks about possible future visits were just a smoke screen.

Our DS couldn't have moved much further away than Australia. He's been back to the UK twice and we've been over there 4 times. His move has of course impacted on the number of visits, but where there's a will there's a way.

Estrangement came early in life for me, although I didn't realize it at the time- I was 17/18- It occurred again when in my 20's- Then 40's- After the 40 mark, very low contact across the board for all family members although if a life event occurred would talk more-

Visiting was something my husband and myself never sorted before he died- Both he and I left our hometowns and the only vacations we'd ever taken was to visit our families who never once visited us with the exception of when one family member needed something and they drove to us to get it-

He and I never understood the " well, you moved away" attitude- I still don't- I've a sibling who went on cruises and traveled about, even within a few hours of where I live now-
They "talked" about visiting but never once did- In fact several traveled to places in close proximity to this address but didn't stop by-

We never understood the psychology that supported the "you moved" attitude and why we were considered "spiteful" when it was decided that there were other things and places we preferred to see come vacation time-

Can anyone explain it?

Yes it is Holyhannah

He totally let slip that actually all they wanted was to be absolved of blame so they could then push me out.

Telling me I must basically go back begging and it was all my fault. That I needed to tell the truth.... Then letting it slip that, that might not a actually be an option and they might not take me back.

The thing is, no matter how much abusive parents say "you estranged us you horrible people" that really is a technicality.

They emotionally or physically estranged us long before.

It was only a year into estrangement that conversation happened. They already put their image above all.

Not long after that my brother sucked me in again. Said he was sorry for taking sides and that he loved me.

The very next day he tried to force a reconsiliation with my mum again. When that failed, he tried to tell me my children must hate him. I said no, they understand adults argue sometimes, they would love to see you. He wouldn't accept that. It took me a few days to realise he wasn't going to respond to my contacts tying to get together.

His ultimate goal, to dump any shame attached and be the one in control by going no contact with me.

Again something figured out in counselling, I wasn't very knowledgeable about how abusive people think then so couldn't ever have understood without help.

It always about winning at all costs. They just don't see or understand we aren't interested in playing

Starblaze -- I posted the previous/above comment 3 weeks ago... Is this not sort of true of the conversation you had with your brother? Is this showing the same mentality you talked about?

Because I see a similarity in 'thinking' here...

Part 3:

"I’d like to say that, in time, you may view all of this with different sight. I do believe, and have seen here and among other parents, that if a child gets in touch someday, it really is too late. Home, as in parents and family, don’t stay the same. So, when EC return, they can’t fit or are not accepted anymore. Or, they are the only one who did not grow and change…."

The mentality on that is chilling... they can’t fit or are not accepted anymore -- Doesn't that sort of tell everything? It's funny to hear that from a 'good'/loving parent because that is something that I hear from child abuse victims... That feeling of 'not belonging'/not being "accepted" by their 'family'.

It's almost a "truth leak"... And then add the "Or, they are the only one who did not grow and change" and that's their issue. We did grow and change which is part of why estrangement occurs and yet parents act like it's the opposite. False beliefs/perceptions like that are their problem and there's no amount of trying to educate them is going to work.

"When a parent reaches enough turning points, they may not be willing to open themselves to the possible rekindling of pain." -- When were they ever 'open' and the relationship with their AC causes them 'pain'? Why do they think their AC walked away?

"I guess I say this because there’s an idea of a tearful reunion, a sorry son, a remorseful daughter… but things just don’t go back after they’ve changed shape." -- That is true. Once an AC realizes what they are being 'served' is not love, they aren't willing to return to the past relationship. It also shows a parental unwillingness to build a new/healthy relationship.

What EP's really want and it's the most common theme of all, THEY WANT THEIR SCAPEGAOT BACK not a healthy relationship.

Pantglas yes they do, all individual. I certainly wouldn't be telling my AC what to do though, ever. Advice if it's asked for only.

Ultimately they get to decide whether the relationship is healthy and sometimes that happens aged 40... It seems to be becoming quite common for estrangement to happen later in life. I was surprised to learn I wasn't the only one to do it

How sad Starblaze.

I do believe that individual children need individual parenting and no one size fits all, even within one family. I.e some children need early independence, others are more needy.

I have a friend who still tells her daughters what to do as adults and they seem happy with that! I also know that my daughter had her own ideas from childhood and wouldn’t listen to me if I told her the house was on fire - she needed to find out for herself!

Had I realised sooner we wouldn’t have estranged so it really comes down to knowing what your child needs at any given time.

Holyhannah I came across a post by an EAC the other day and I will see if I can find it again but Wow.

She had screenshot a meme about how children don't ever want to self orphan and don't estrange for no reason and said it was a lie. She described a typically abusive mother and went on to describe how different she was to her mum and how she has lost her son anyway.

What followed was paragraphs of how much she had protected him, encouraged him into a specific career she believed played to his talents. She did everything for him and paid every expense. How close they were and how they had lived together 40 years....

Enmeshed, parentified, not allowed to grow up this son had finally run far away. She just couldn't see how she had stunted his emotional growth and used her childhood to maniuate him into the exact opposite relationship... Never let go of him being a child. From abnormal to abnormal.

Part 2:

"We parents want our EC to see these messages as loving but I think we need to consider that perhaps our EC do not see them positively. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t." Me -- "Don't just consider 'it'. You are correct. Your EAC does not see those types of messages as 'loving' OR 'positive'."

"please don’t disrespect yourself: “. Yesterday my daughter said she doesn’t have time for a relationship with me. I don’t want to disrespect her”.

I would be in shock. Are you?
I would be confused, and yes, angry. Are you there yet?"

And AGAIN -- EP's advise each other to "get angry" etc... According to ME, "abusers" are defaulted emotionally to ANGER...

"Please read elsewhere about contacting, writing letters, we’ve all been through this and it’s proved unsatisfactory and mostly escalated the issues at their end." And why is that? Hint/Answer -- "Because your AC sent you SOME of the 'reasons' and how many did You own/accept? NONE." -- And yet the EP still says, "I don't understand what the issue is..."

"it’s better not to apologise or defend myself (it just confirms for my daughter that I’ve done something wrong.) in reality the less reassurance I give my daughter that I am available as a kicking post, the more it is on her to consider herself as equally responsible for the relationship”." -- When your child has gone NC they already know You, the 'parent', have done wrong. And now YOU want Me/Us (EAC) to claim "equal" for the relationship breakdown?

As an added bonus saying they/the EP is a "kicking post"? Me -- "You think being 'kicked' by your child is bad? Seriously? And how do YOU think a child feels when kicked by their parent? Is that an equal 'thing'?"