No not all EAC make things up HolyHannah but some do. Something else you find unpalatable because it doesn't fit your
'all EP's are bad people' narrative.
Why so sensitive? Only last night you were telling me, whose son estranged us because of his dysfunctional, manipulative and controlling wife, that he must have learned from his childhood that such behaviour is normal and acceptable. That no AC who had a healthy, happy and 'normal' childhood could possibly be manipulated in that way.
Who was calling someone a liar then?
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
Why do wish you hadn't seen that? It happens, it's what some EAC do. You seem to readily accept that EP's fabricate the reasons for their estrangement so why are you unwilling or unable to accept that some EAC do so too?
Why else would some EAC need to fabricate the reasons they give for estranging them.
What a polite way to call EAC liars on a thread about common themes we understand. Yup. We all just make up fun reasons to make ourselves orphans and I also self-traumatized to the point of getting C-PTSD. That's sarcasm FTR.
OH wow I wish I hadn't seen that!
Why else would some EAC need to fabricate the reasons they give for estranging them.
wow.
I guess I will see you all soon then LOL curiosity about where that one leads is going to get me
just before I go this is the article I was talking about, I bookmarked it because it was so hopeful and beautiful
psiloveyou.xyz/this-is-what-your-estranged-child-wants-you-to-do-4b65022152bb
That is not to say that there are perfect blameless parents, there's no such thing as a perfect parent or a perfect child for that matter. There are however parents who when it comes to their estrangement are blameless. Why else would some EAC need to fabricate the reasons they give for estranging them.
Your understanding of the term is correct Madgran, a horse with a horn on it's head, a mythical creature that doesn't exist.
HH asserts that an AC from a 'normal' healthy family would never be fooled by someone with a dysfunctional abusive nature. An AC who is trapped by an abuser only does so because in their own childhood experience they experienced abuse and dysfunction so accept such behaviour.
As a generalisation it is utter nonsense of course. There are studies that support this claim and rightly so, but there are also studies that show this isn't always the case, and those studies are of equal value and importance. That AC can find themselves ensnared by an abusive partner despite being raised in a 'normal' and healthy family environment.
With this scenario then our ES is a unicorn. I say which is true, that he was raised in a 'normal' happy and loving family environment, but for those who will not accept that AC can and do estrange themselves from decent parents and families, our ES is a unicorn; he does not and cannot possibly exist.
Estranged children are treated as less than here, we know what causes estrangement from our side but everything we say HAS to be discredited by some as if all estranged children must be wrong or their child is not wrong.
Every point we make has to be argued by some or twisted into something it didn't originally mean.
We get held to rules that some don't follow themselves or expect any estranged parent to follow.
We get told that estranged children should not be on a forum for grandparents even though we erm, age like everyone else? We are adult estranged children not children
The evidence is there over and over again.
Unless we are willing to go along with the ideal that no parent deserves estrangement and they are unicorns, we are wrong and must be shot down. Even when our advice could actually save a relationship.
Rather than wait for the comment I am sure to get telling me that NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE HAPPENING AND ACTUALLY YOOUUU ARE THE PROBLEM HERE I may take another social media break lol
Catch you later.
a unicorn is something that doesn't exist, like a perfect blameless parent
No need to be embarrassed, I just would be genuinely interested to know what you mean by unicorn as I simply dont understand the term other than as a mythical horse with a horn on its head!!
So embarrassed
I'm learning bad habits here ?
I don't want to speak for her, that was just my interpretation of what she was trying to explain
I'm waiting for Holyhannah to explain just in case I have misunderstood and got the wrong end of the stick lol
So I am guessing Holyhannah doesn't believe she has seen a unicorn here yet.
Holyhannah has also posted before that she has found a proverbial unicorn
Starblaze As per my question on another thread I am now trying to work out what unicorn means in this context? You have mentioned unicorns twice as above. Still not sure that I understand...a mythical creature that doesn't exist maybe? Or something else?
I am talking about abusive parents though as the subject of this thread
In that context ...agree!
Examples of unreasonable expectations:
Let me carry on abusing you and stop fighting it because it is making me look bad and I will have no use for you thus disowning you!
Stop being an atheist and follow our religion or I will disown you!
Stop being gay or trans or whatever or I will disown you!
Sort of thing
I expect so but remember that's before estrangement not after. Estranging someone is the giving up on any expectations of them changing. Sometimes what we expect people to change into is of course unreasonable. I am talking about abusive parents though as the subject of this thread which I have to say has been kept wonderfully on topic by all parties lol
But it only happens when one side won't make any attempt to change things for the better
True! Which "side" won't change differs in different scenarios depending on the cause!
The unique responses to problems, that might matter, might just be spoken in dreams-
What Holyhannah has seen in her unhealthy family is that abusive behaviour or a tolerance for abusive behaviour is learnt. There are many scientific studies that back this theory up. Holyhannah has also posted before that she has found a proverbial unicorn (I was absolutely blown away and humbled by that woman and wish she was my mum).
Most estranged children by waking up and knowing they were abused then recognise they have unhealthy coping mechanisms, learnt behaviour or resulting depression and anxiety that directly impacts their own children so in most cases they work on fixing it.
Sadly though you can know you were abused and still become abusive and not recognise it in yourself. I have seen estranged children go that way and it is heartbreaking.
So I am guessing Holyhannah doesn't believe she has seen a unicorn here yet.
Despite knowing I had plenty of learnt behaviour I had to unlearn and I am still pursuing ways to be a better parent. If I am ever estranged by my child I will know for sure I am not perfect and innocent. I'd be a unicorn. However knowing what I know I will never let it get that far. I say sorry when people walk into me so I doubt I will have any problem taking responsibility if my children complain.
Having learnt behaviour, difficult personality traits or any other problem due to being abused myself does not make me not responsible for my own behaviour.
No one is ever blameless in estrangement. But it only happens when one side won't make any attempt to change things for the better.
You can't possibly know that HolyHannah can you. Judging from your posts you weren't raised in a healthy family dynamic so how can you possibly know that it you had been, you'd have been immediately able to spot a dysfunctional abuser? How would you know what to look for if you'd never met one before?
You have "watched the cycle of abuse play out through multiple generations in (your) own family" but our ES didn't.
I understand that it suits your narrative to suggest that our ES learned from his childhood to accept dysfunction as normal, because he was raised in a dysfunctional family but he wasn't.
There are plenty of dysfunctional thinking abusive EAC out there. That is fact.
You spend a lot of time talking about your reality but refuse to acknowledge and accept someone else's reality because it doesn't match with your own.
Of course over time someone can be convinced that their normal healthy family is the opposite. It's a common factor in many estrangements.
Oh seriously i need to go to bed. I'm exhausted and a watched bunny does not show signs of improvement.
I remember a friend when I was a teen, just chatting with her mum, poring over a fashion magazine with her mum, chatting and laughing. I don't remember ever e, pediencing that kind of ease or just existing together in the same place without put downs or simply being told to go away. There are probably lots of degrees of healthy. I read once thy children need parents that are "good enough" not perfect. Surely that exists?
I cannot recall a single healthy family from childhood- Not as a teen- Not as a young adult- By the time I became a young mother I remember one healthy couple- Their simplicity, compassion, chemistry and kids all were easy and kind- Kind of a needle in a haystack- That's not to say I haven't met healthy people along the way, but families as a whole? Nope .. Just that one-
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