The 'Perception Filter'...

*I guess it depends on how YOU raised them*; exactly and whose to say this EP's EAC wasn't raised in a decent, caring, loving and supportive environment?

I think that the issue with the original statement quoted is the assumption that love equals contact. You can love someone and know that being in contact with them is harmful to you. More important qualities than love in any relationship are respect and communication. You can maintain any relationship (even one without love) using these basic principles. Love in and of itself (in my opinion) is largely irrelevant In maintaining relationships because it is so subjective. Also, the level of competition implied in the statement is just really really sad to me, it smacks of a poor soul trying to create reasons for their estrangement, trying to make sense of it in a very biased limited way. I feel sorry for the mindset and situation of whoever originally said this.

I don't fall out with people generally, I have been fortunate over the years to have wonderful friends and I have a good relationship with my children. No relationships are perfect because people aren't perfect. However, when the bad in a relationship outweighs the good, or there is no good then that relationship has run its course whether that's a friend, spouse or family member.

Thats just the truth of the matter. If someone does not want a relationship with you, there is a reason.

Sometimes those reasons are false, like my mum telling lies about me but that has only worked on people who didn't know me well enough to know they were lies. That didn't work when people close to me or my own children were told the same lies. They were immediately dismissed by people who know me well. Besides, I'm not perfect and people close to me already know the worst, they love me for the best.

My family bicker and argue and have nothing nice to say about each other behind closed doors. I was the only one unwilling to participate in gossip and nastyness.

So many people want to tow the line too, want to be part of the perfect and blameless image. You only have to look at those who ignore red flags here, from people they don't know at all or only know as an online persona, so that they can be a part of something perfect and blameless. Why else ignore huge red flags? The same happens in families sometimes, the projected family image is more important than addressing and repairing underlying issues.

In my life, the issues just don't go unaddressed. They are talked through and worked on and no one plays the blame game. Apologies and changes are made so that everyone can be themselves and comfortable.

If my mum wants to say I am the problem, that's fine but I will continue to grow and heal and keep my relationships healthy.

I was never the one unable to maintain a good relationship. She was. She has kept very few relationships over the years. I'm only one of them.

A lot of people who have been estranged at some point try to make sense of what's happened and some spend the rest of their lives trying to do so. It's a perfectly natural and understandable response IMO. That said I don't see the EP in the OP "trying to make sense of it in a very biased limited way".

Sometimes no explanation is given, so there's little or no information to go on.

Where was "the level of competition implied" and the suggestion that love equals contact? I agree that you can love someone and not wish to have contact because any contact brings with it at the very least, the possibility of being hurt.

Relationships can and are maintained without love as many for example relationships with work colleagues and acquaintances don't require love.

I do think though that a relationship which once had love, or the mistaken assumption that there was love, would be extremely difficult to maintain once that love was lost, or it was discovered that love never really existed.

In the absence of knowing anything about the EP in the OP IMO it's impossible to judge his/her mindset or their situation apart from the obvious that they are estranged from an AC.

Of course if one's assumption is that this EP was in some way abusive and dysfunctional, that could well result in a particular interpretation. That said there is absolutely nothing for me, to suggest that is the case.

It's not natural to think that someone who estranged you doesn't care if you are alive or dead even when they walked away and it's not natural to assume they cannot love others close to them because they don't love you. That's just a way the OP is trying to make herself feel better and put the blame on their child rather than deal with the underlying issue.

That's my thoughts on it anyway, I don't assume my mum doesn't love others because she expresses none to me. Evidence might suggest otherwise but I cannot really know how she really feels deep down.

How would that estranged child look at what their parent said, that's the really important bit. Probably along the lines of "why would someone with such a low opinion of me want me in their lives anyway?".

Given that most estranged children I have spoken too felt unloved and unwanted, even before we deal with any abuse, it's just a reinforcement of that. Even if it was just unloved and unwanted as themselves because their parents would not accept their choices, friends or romantic relationships and tried to mould them into something they didn't want to be.

At least that is how I feel when similar things are said to me.

Given that it’s from an estranged parent the only assumption I have made is that it’s someone trying to make sense of their situation.
The limited and biased way they do it is biased as it’s their own experience and to me limited because it only focuses on the “love” of the situation, maybe overlooking any actual issues? BTW I think anyone who describes their own situations will be biased I do not mean that as an insult.
The implied competition of love is there in that they equate the fact that if they cannot unconditionally love a parent then how can they love a partner who the EP deemed to be “damaged”. There is no equivalency between the love of a parent and that of a partner - therefore to me trying to equate them is setting them in competition like it’s one vs another if you see what I mean.
I have no clue whether this poor soul was ghosted, my only point was that to focus on the “love” from either side of the relationship doesn’t actually examine what went wrong. I personally don’t think love or a lack thereof at any point in a relationship causes or sustains estrangement, it’s respect and communication.
I may have overstated by commenting on mindset and definitely will admit to my own bias on that comment. I suppose it’s a bit of wishful thinking on my part that my own estranged relative would have focused less on the supposed “love” and more on behaviours.
Apologies for the generalisations, the whole paragraph just hit a bit of a sore spot for me.

It's very limited in detail Lolo, no way of knowing anything about the EP or his/her circumstances. Estrangement is a very painful subject for those who have personal experience of it. We all have our sore spots; no apologies needed.

lolo all we can do is comment from our own perspective or experience and how things make us feel. There is nothing wrong in that

You can love someone and yet know they are not good for you and the only way you can mange to survive is to cut yourself free from them. It's not a question of not caring it's a question of self preservation.

Indeed; there are times when self preservation must be the priority.

Thanks for giving me the space to have a bit of a rant on here without judgement. It’s been cathartic to get that out. I think remembering that self preservation was what I was striving for helps. This blooming lockdown has brought a lot of pent up emotion to the surface for me and reading these threads have been a great outlet.

The first question "How can our EC turn their backs on the very people who raised them and not give a hoot if they are dead or alive? How do you know what an EC thinks?

Next question "Can they really love their spouses, their children?" Yes. Not at all similar to same to relationships with EPs.

Last question "Are they capable of feeling love for anyone. In my case, I know with certainty that my ES loves his children" YES, see above, not the same as EPs.

It doesn’t so much depend on how the children were raised as to who they married.

More often than not, mental health issues are at the root of it, either the estranged child’s, or the mental health issues of the estranged child’s spouse. Jealousy, resentment, feelings of inferiority or superiority, anxiety, etc etc.

Don't look over the poor mental health that may have existed in home when EC were growing.

Not much valid to the view of bad mental health of EC spouse.

That's true maddyone mental health issues in an AC's partner are often a key factor in estrangement.

My mum would agree, hates my husband. A decent, hard working man and great father but obviously to blame in my estrangement.

No, you’re to blame in your estrangement. Your decision, so own it.

In my case, I know with certainty that my ES loves his children, but in my heart I know he married someone who is very damaged even more so than he is and I think in order for his own survival, he in his mind pretends that all is well

He could have been imprinted to pretend and survive,
and she recognized the dynamic-

But if estranged from him, how would she even know?

Pretending isn't living, it's shaping yourself to fit-

"No, you’re to blame in your estrangement. Your decision, so own it."

My family abused me to the point of suicidal thoughts by 10 and have suffered the affects of C-PTSD my entire life. I wanted nothing more then the abuse to stop so we could be a 'family'. They couldn't stop abusing so I couldn't be a part of their life/the 'family'.

So yes, I guess it is 100% my fault I'm estranged. I just could not pretend being abused, sorry, 'enjoying' their company, was okay for my mental health anymore.

No maddyone I am not to blame for making that decision, I am responsible for making that decision, and it wasn't a responsibility I ever wanted but my children need a mentally healthy mother who shows them that they should never be in an unhealthy relationship, by leaving one.

I am not to blame for having an abusive parent. Not as an innocent child or as an adult.

rosecarmel said, "Pretending isn't living, it's shaping yourself to fit."

And when you're the Scapegoat it doesn't matter how flexible you are, you are never going to fit in your 'family'.

For those like maddyone that say, "More often than not, mental health issues are at the root of it, either the estranged child’s, or the mental health issues of the estranged child’s spouse. Jealousy, resentment, feelings of inferiority or superiority, anxiety, etc etc." a lot of people will agree with that.

And from my 'mom's POV she would as well. She'd say, "Hannah is mentally ill." -- which is 100% true (I have documents to prove it), so she 'wins' right? "If Hannah wasn't mentally ill she wouldn't have estranged/abandoned her entire 'family' and gone No Contact with not just Us, but almost everyone she grew up around." Again, my 'mom' would be factually accurate and therefore 'correct'.

She would go on to believe, justifiably (with the facts/evidence now on her side), "Because Hannah is mentally ill, she walked away from Us." Which, gosh golly, is also true. I'm not winning in this argument at all. IF I wasn't certifiably/genuinely mentally ill, I wouldn't have 'walked away' from her perspective.

But wait... I AM 'mentally ill'. I have the "participation ribbon" as 'proof' -- It's called C-PTSD. And my 'mom' and enablers who don't see dysfunctional thinking/behavior cling to me/their AC having a mental illnesses/outside 'influencers' and THAT is the ROOT of the estrangement. Still all true.

The only question/truth my 'mom' doesn't want to accept is the ultimate one, "Why is/does Hannah have mental illnesses?" The truthful/reflective answer of, "Because I wasn't even a 'good enough' parent..." is still too painful to contemplate.

She'll revert back to all the prior 'truths' she has as 'evidence' of ME being the problem.

More often than not, mental health issues are at the root of it, either the estranged child’s, or the mental health issues of the estranged child’s spouse. Jealousy, resentment, feelings of inferiority or superiority, anxiety, etc etc

I can understand how, even up until recently, this would have been accepted as a cause of estrangement. However, HolyHannah raises an incredibly important point.

The only question/truth my 'mom' doesn't want to accept is the ultimate one, "Why is/does Hannah have mental illnesses?" The truthful/reflective answer of, "Because I wasn't even a 'good enough' parent..." is still too painful to contemplate

Attitudes towards mental health are changing. Information regarding the causes of mental health conditions is widely available. You do not need a degree in psychology to know that mental health issues are mainly rooted in abuse/trauma/neglect in childhood.