The 'Perception Filter'...

It's rather like this:

From my 'mom's perception I am 100% to blame for our estrangement.

My perception is HER lack of willing to accept accountability for her behavior that we are estranged.

My 'mom's perception is that my mental health issues are to blame.

Let's say my MHI's were Caner instead... I went to a doctor and the doctor said, "Well Hannah, you have cancer." So I received treatment for the 'cancer' and I went into remission/got healthier.

After this happens, I start to see the same signs of 'cancer' in other family members. Unfortunately THEY are "too good" to get 'cancer' like me or that I am blowing their symptoms "out of proportion" because I am so focused on my 'cancer' that I see it in everybody.

No... I just see the signs of 'cancer' when they are present. If my 'family' wants to ignore that 'cancer' it becomes their choice. Unfortunately abuse is a contagious 'cancer' so once you've survived 'it' going back to be re-exposed becomes your issue.

Abusers don't seek out treatment and try to discredit anyone who has 'survived' because they don't see any 'symptoms' of their own 'cancer'. Who seeks out treatment for a disease they don't have?

I should add that a lot of Cancer's are genetic, so if I have 'cancer' doesn't it stand to reason that my parents and siblings might also be at an elevated risk of that same 'cancer'?

Abusive people don't have to be mad to be abusive they just are, and if they're called out on it and do apologise in order to maintain their fake persona, the apology is false.

It goes without saying IMO that an abuser doesn't want to be seen for what they are, especially by their 'victim' if the abuse is happening in an adult relationship, as an adult is more likely, though not always of course, to walk away.

The second paragraph of your post at 16.34 today rosecarmel is impossible if the AC has estranged their parent(s) and refuses all and any communication. It's also impossible if the AC refuses to acknowledge or is unable to see that their partner is abusive.

A conversation of that nature would need to be instigated by the AC. If it were instigated by their parent(s) they would simply become defensive and if estrangement hadn't already taken place, it may well do.

I have never had an apology from my mother. Ever.

As a child, I took responsibility for many things which was not mine to take. I refuse to do that anymore.

As an adult and mother, I hold myself accountable to my children and will always apologise to them as I am human, I have faults, many faults, however, I am not afraid to acknowledge those faults and strive to be and do better. I definitely picked up a few of my mother’s dysfunctional behaviours, and I have worked hard not to replicate those with my own children.

A common theme I see when it comes to estrangement is an inability to say sorry. The inability to acknowledge wrongdoing and to genuinely apologise for it. For some people, it seems to be almost impossible.

I'm completely guilty for laughing at that one

And I absolutely understand why!

The post I was referring to however was chilling to read. Sadistic, really.

I did find it funny to puke all over the kitchen table tho ..

The carrots again ..

I'm completely guilty for laughing at that one ..

It brought back memories of me puking at the kitchen table when being forced to eat what I didn't like ..

To me, the carrots are like one of those war stories that sometimes produce traumatic laughter or uncontrollable sobbing ..

Madgran, I don't think discussions provide immunity either but do provide insight-

If a parent didn't have the insight to provide, it's their responsibility to be truthful regarding that fact- They could say, " Jack/Jane, I'm sorry about the difficult situation you're in and sorry that as a parent I had no knowledge or insight to provide you with in advance- Thank you for helping me to understand you, your circumstance and teaching me about something I wasn't aware of- You have my support-"

Instead of, "It's all his/her fault-" Meaning the the manipulative partner- Because it will only lead to distancing, defensiveness and eventually estrangement-

One example teaches accountability and the other to "blame"-

Abusive people do not want to be seen as abusive, not even by the person they are abusing.

I really didn't understand at first how my mum could deny things when it was just her and I alone. Sometimes she would deny saying something 5 minutes after saying it.

Me being logically minded, I thought she must be right, I must be crazy and imagining it because she has nothing to lose by admitting it to me.

Abusive people, I later learned after referring myself thinking I was crazy, of course don't want their victims to see them as abusive, or the victims go away and they can't abuse them any more.

They absolutely cannot hide it all the time though, abusive behaviours slip out, especially when they are angry.

You see an abusive person behave abusively when they are mad, they will generally blame someone else for making them angry. Never take responsibility for their own behaviour.

That's how you can tell the difference between a truly abusive person and someone who got mad and lashed out. Whether or not they offer a genuine apology for their bad behaiour.

HolyHannah, I stand by your last post 100%-

Abuse and neglect were systemic in my community too, and accepted as a societal norms-

Nobody could be accountable if they didn't have a clue, impart knowledge, or wisely apply it-

Thanks yorkie

Smileless.....your post on here at 9.31am today....Well you couldnt have put anything better. You put my thoughts into words in this post..........thank you

That's an important point OceanMama. If you've had personal experience of a bad situation or relationship, you are alerted to the possibility of it happening to your own child(ren).

I was abused as a small child and made certain that neither of our boys would ever be in similar circumstances where that may happen, when they were of a similar age; too young to have talked to them about it.

As you say, inexperience can lead to certain situations. Neither of us had had any experience of an abusive, coercive adult and it was only with hindsight, when it was too late, that we could see what had been going on.

Regardless of the tools we give our children, just as it is with ourselves, they have to learn and that can mean learning from their mistakes, or not as the case may be.

I agree with not blaming the parents Smileless. I got into situations I wanted to save my children from. I don't feel that my parents equipped me to deal with them and I can't believe what I tolerated now. I talked to and taught my children and, you know, they still had to have learning experiences. I think it's often inexperience that leads to these kind of situations. When you are new to dating, it takes a while to find out who the person really is and you do need to learn. I think a lot of my own mistakes were because of messages wider society sent me rather than anything my parents did or didn't do.

I have never estranged our son rosecarmel!! After 4 years of our estrangement, just before we moved, I wrote to him to say 'goodbye'.

We were moving from our home, the village we'd lived in for 30 years to make a new life for our selves, to move on and begin to heal. Neither of which we realised after 4 years was going to be possible living just 15 doors away from him and the GC we would occasionally catch site of, but weren't allowed any contact with.

For my own well being I needed to close that particular chapter in my life and say my goodbyes to the son who had walked away from, and estranged his parents. He became abusive once he'd estranged us. I have never indicated that we estranged him.

"Is the marriage you're in the marriage you'd want for your child?", absolutely.

I don't find all of your posts melodramatic, just the one I referred too as being so.

I agree with you PGAgirl and I referred to what you've posted earlier on this thread. A parent may well have some concerns about their AC's relationship due to less contact with their AC, arrangements being made and cancelled at the last minute on more than one occasion.

Not wanting to be or be seen as being pushy, understanding that when their AC becomes involved in a serious relationship the dynamic of their own changes and wanting their AC's partner to be and feel welcomed into the family, nagging concerns that begin to surface are kept to themselves and/or between the AC's parents.

Sadly for some the reward for patience and understanding is never received and they'll never know what it's like to be called Granny and Gramps, never mind experience what it's like to be much loved GP's.

It isn't "a given" as you say Madgran it's ridiculous IMO to take parent blaming when it comes to the issue of estrangement, to the point where it's the parent(s) fault if their AC becomes involved in an abusive coercive relationship.

With all the new openess about mental illness it is heartening to see more understanding. I would say however, not all mental illness us caused by an abusive home, the most loving of parents have children with severe mental issues. Whereas they try and try to help the person, when the person with the problems is constantly abusuve and you are frightened, there is no choice as a last resort to protect yourself and others you are responsible for. I find it very worrying that people who get violent when not on medication are not monitored are out and about, it is well know test for one condition the person stops the meds because they feel they don't need it. Sometimes you can understand estrangement.

All I know is that the systematic abuse was rampant in my entire community... The last thing any 'adult' was going to teach or enlighten their children on was what abusers actually "looked liked"/how they behaved.

As soon as I met an "outside influence" that did/could explain what I always saw? Talk about a light bulb moment.

Even the most basic of mental health knowledge, if given at an early age, could 'change the world' to abuse victims... But who would be responsible/should impart that knowledge?

The adults of course... Unless they are abusive in which case the last thing they will say/do is teach what abusers look like... lest their victim(s) look at them and say, "Isn't that exactly how You behave?"

And I did say 'that' at times when my 'mom' would complain about, "Don't you hate it when someone does insert."

If someone had told me at age five or seven or before suicidal thought era/age 10+ for me, "Abusers gas-light and will say, 'I am not doing insert while they are actually doing that'... Don't believe their lies and believe your reality/truth..." I would have done 'better' much sooner.

It would be just as easy to have a discussion with your teen or younger child as they begin to form relationships- Talks geared to their particular age-

I agree with you on that rosecarmel. I did as a parent. I dont believe that guarantees their "immunity" from ending up in a coercive relationship though which is why I dont think it is a given assumption that if an AC ends up in a coercive relationship it must be because their parents did something wrong. It may be but I dont think it is a given.

Smileless, you've indicated more than once that you estranged your son because he became abusive- I don't recall you ever saying that he was the one to walk away-

You ask who warns their kids about abusive, toxic, manipulative and coercive people? I did- And continue to- But there's plenty that was left unsaid, actions that weren't taken, and that's on me as a parent, on me to apologize for- Which is also something I continue to do: apologize-

Why? Because I don't feel like I have to be right- But do aspire to being clearly understood and aspire to clearly understand where my children are coming from-

I don't believe it's always the parents fault because I believe it's always the parents responsibility-

I agree with Madgran that it's a complicated dynamic and circumstance- But there's one question to ask anyone in such a compromising situation that cuts to the chase: Is the marriage you're in the marriage you'd want for your child?

You continue to respond to my posts despite the fact that you find them melodramatic and ridiculous ..

So melodramatic .. that it even comes with a tiny violin .. ?

I agree with you, Madgran, that anyone could be taken off guard- And that isn't too simplistic or too sweeping of a statement since everyone is potentially vulnerable-

That being said, you see how easy it is to provide informative sources on the subject- It would be just as easy to have a discussion with your teen or younger child as they begin to form relationships- Talks geared to their particular age-

If a discussion doesn't take place, they'll have no prior point of reference, no knowledge of specific behaviors and cues-

Who would be responsible for not having that discussion with their child? I know I would be if I didn't- And it would be one of many things I have apologized for as a parent, as a person-

At a certain point it is perfectly natural for our children to become immersed in their own lives and leave us behind. After all, this is what we wanted for our children to become independent, and make their own happy family unit. Our job is not to push into their new life, but to sit back and wait until they need us again. We then need to make our own lives not based on our children. To be welcoming but not be too pushy or too needy, they have no obligation to include us in their life, it is nice when the do. The reward for being patient is that when they have children, they will realise that they do need us and we become a much loved Granny and Gramps,

*Not believing someone when they say, "It's all my evil DiL's fault I am estranged." is not the same as someone insisting I am upset or angry when I am not.

If someone wants to think/believe I am angry? Fine. Telling me I am angry and continuing to say I am, after I have clearly stated I am not is the issue.

Apples and oranges.*

I'm not really sure why you are telling me this Holy Hannah I was just agreeing with you that "dismissing what I am telling you as personal/fact truth is disconcerting" and I was saying that it would be for anyone.

Yes Pantglas I wonder if the irony was intended.

Holyhannah one of my final straws was very similar. I am ashamed I needed to have her behaviour proven so often. So many final straws.

But there was a clash of events, Mum, stepdad and brother had already in depth discussed how angry I would be about it and worked themselves into a frenzy. I suddenly had a barrage of messages and phone calls telling me off before I even knew what was happening.

Like you, I'm just not an angry person at all amd it takes an incredible amount of time to push me there. It's very confusing to be told you are feeling things you aren't.

Then those abusive people, in that one situation, eventually managed to harass nd accuse me so much I did become angry.

They hit the Jackpot and claimed they were right all along.

Starblaze -- One of the last phone calls I had with my 'mom' went something like this:

'mom' -- "Hannah, I know you are upset about 'incident'."

Me -- "Don't worry about it. No big deal." the conversation continued.

'mom' -- "About the incident... I know you are angry."

Me -- "Nope. I really don't care." more conversation.

'mom' -- "About the incident...."

Me -- "I've already told you I am not angry."

'mom' -- "But I know you are angry..."

Me -- "Well, I am now." and I hung up on her.

From her perspective I was angry about 'the incident' and THAT is why I hung up on her. What I was actually annoyed about was her insisting I was angry when I was not and then not listening as I calmly told her numerous times I was not upset until she made me upset.

I suggest we get back to topic as otherwise, some will work to get this discussion and their embarrassment deleted so it appears to have never happened

Ah, this didn’t even cross my mind.

Nice catch Starblaze.

I won’t take the bait.