The 'Perception Filter'...

Parents don't always know that the relationship their AC is involved with is manipulative. The manipulation occurs over time.

You can start to see less of your AC and have less contact but not say anything because you don't want to be possessive of your AC. The annoyance you feel when on more than one occasion an arrangement to meet up is cancelled at the last minute, is kept to yourself.

You want your AC to be happy and don't want to be a source of discontent in their relationship. You want to get on with their partner, make them welcome and feel they are a part of the family.

It takes time before you, as a parent, other family member or friend can see what's going on and depending on the length of the relationship, the extent of commitment that's been made and the depth of feeling the 'victim' has for their abuser it can be too late.

It's no coincidence that a number of estrangements occur when the first child is born. When not just the relationship with the partner is significant but the desire and need to maintain the family unit for the sake of the child becomes paramount.

It was only with hindsight that we were able to see what had been going on for months. What began when she became pregnant and proceeded with alarming speed once our first GC was born. When he was just 8 months old, we were disposed of.

Not long into our estrangement, our ES told his brother that he'd told his wife he'd given everything up for her. There was then a point when he realised what he'd done, maybe he felt he was in too deep, that he might lose his child if he didn't go along with her demands.

I guess we'll never know but he was right, he did give up everything for her.

HolyHannah you've posted "Dismissing what I am telling you as personal fact/truth is disconcerting" perhaps you could remember that when you dismiss the "personal fact/truth" that EP's share on GN.

PetitFromage -- "You have nothing to forgive yourself for and your feelings are entirely understandable. You are angry and hurt and a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you, only say what they personally have found to be helpful in overcoming their individual pain - obviously based on their own unique characters and experiences/ 'perception filter'."

Thank you for your reply but you are doing 'it' again. Of course I have/had a lot to forgive myself for. You don't know my life or history as I have shared minimal personal information here. Dismissing what I am telling you as personal fact/truth is disconcerting. I had a LOT to forgive myself for and I did.

I could see from my earliest days that my mothers anger and bitterness was what made our entire 'family'/home dysfunctional/abusive. I was never "allowed" to get angry because anger was an emotion that only 'betters' were "allowed" -- their anger was their justification for their abusive behavior. "If you hadn't made me angry I wouldn't have..." I knew I didn't like being abused (even when I didn't know I was being abused) and I knew I didn't want to make others feel like 'people' made Me feel.

I only ever saw anger (the emotion) as a justification for crappy behavior -- dysfunctional and unhealthy thinking? Yes. You learn what you are raised with as your 'normal'. And since any crappy behavior was punished out of me, I had 'no reason' to be angry. And yes, one should be angry when being abused, but since I only knew something was "wrong" with my 'family' and I was told our 'family' was "normal" -- that gaslighting at work... I had NOTHING to be angry about.

One of the few healthy traits I came out of from my 'family' with was amazing anger management skills. Almost to an unhealthy level... In other words, I have a tendency to NOT "get angry" at stuff I should.

You are angry and hurt -- Please stop telling Me how I feel. My 'mom' wasn't good at it (in fact she was almost always wrong about what I was thinking and feeling) and you are faring little better. You say, "a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you"... Very true and please remind me where I asked for advice.

What you are selling as "genuine concern" is falling more into the 'B' part of my first reply.

If parents offered instruction on being cautious then maybe when their kids enter into a manipulative relationship they would have some prior point of reference to rely on rather than rely upon the word and alerts of family and friends after the fact, at which point the victim would naturally become defensive-

"Perception might be that estranged parents can't see what they did wrong. That might be the case. Equally it might be that their AC has found themselves in a coercive controlling relationship" Exactly Madgran.

A coercive controlling relationship happens over time, it's subtle which is why the 'victim' doesn't see what's happening and the extent to which they are being controlled and manipulated.

They're 'encouraged' to distance themselves from and eventually estrange family and friends who if they haven't done so already, may see what's going on and alert the 'victim' to the corrosive nature of the relationship they're in.

You can't be cautious of something or know what to look for if you aren't taught to-

Granted even the FBI and the CIA make mistakes- But at least they received extensive training-

When you meet people you're basically talking to complete strangers- Without some kind of prior guidance you can easily be taken, for a fool, to be used, manipulated, robbed of who you once were and worse-

Some estranged posters have suffered abusive childhoods and have estranged from their parents as a result. In describing their abusive childhoods, descriptions of what is clearly coercive controlling parenting are given.

Some posters are parents who have been estranged after their AC have found partners...descriptions suggest that the AC are suffering coercive control of some sort. ANYONE can find themselves in a coercive controlling relationship, even remarkably strong and confident people; coercive control creeps up. The response to it creeping up is not necessarily to do with ones childhood parenting and a LOT to do with how clever the controller is at the task of coercion.

Perception might be that estranged parents can't see what they did wrong. That might be the case. Equally it might be that their AC has found themselves in a coercive controlling relationship.

This view is as valid as any other on possible causes of estrangement.

I agree Namsnanny another lovely post PF

01 June 7.44 PetitFromage … Lovely empathetic post. [flowers}

"I forgive myself for not seeing it sooner.."

This is why I can empathize, although not agree, with the parents that claim they didn't do anything wrong-

They don't see- I didn't either-

As a child I understood that my family was running on a different track than I was a lot of the time- They said things and did things that I instinctively knew could be approached differently- With kindness and love, instead of violence-

But there were other patterns that my child's eyes didn't see, that I was taught, that were imprinted upon me- As a result, I was excessively vulnerable to all kinds of stuff- I couldn't protect myself from what I couldn't see, couldn't protect my children and then them theirs-

I couldn't see, so couldn't be clear about what not to put up with-

Parents often want to be forgiven for what they fail to see- If you were to unpack that one, forgiveness would be missing- Completely- The box would be filled with what they want, there's isn't anything in it for you except a bunch of empty-

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyposaQWnI

I stopped forgiving my mum, it became pointless to keep forgiving behaviour she was not accountable apologetic for. I stopped forgiving by estranging.

I forgive myself for putting up with her behaviour for so long.

I forgive myself for not seeing it sooner, for not understanding that all the things she put me down for were things she caused with her treatment of me.

I forgive myself for exposing my children to a toxic person for so long.

Toxic people rewrite history to make themselves innocent and blameless.
Toxic people care only for appearances, all shame and blame must be placed on another to achieve that.

Toxic people don't think they are toxic because they work hard at convincing themselves and others they are not.

That's why they need a scapegoat.

Hannah - of course our actions and responses are shaped by our background and upbringing. You and your sister were seriously let down by the person who, above all others, should have kept you safe.

You have nothing to forgive yourself for and your feelings are entirely understandable. You are angry and hurt and a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you, only say what they personally have found to be helpful in overcoming their individual pain - obviously based on their own unique characters and experiences/ 'perception filter'.

PetitFromage -- Thankfully without further information, I tend to not choose either meaning. In the context of perception I used your comment as an example of how a person's view is their 'Perception Filter'. I am often accused of not seeing 'both sides' or taking a bias one way or another. I can often take a statement two or even more possible ways... How I choose to perceive a message will obviously mold my reply.

Abusers will often (if not always) find the worst possible interpretation in a situation and run on that as fact. It's part of drama creating behaviors of dysfunctional thinkers.

I believe in the best in people until they give me a reason to feel otherwise.

As for forgiveness, isn't that one of the most loaded parts of estrangement? Who needs to apologize and who needs to forgive whom for what?

I cannot speak for other child abuse survivors but forgiveness where I am concerned is more of towards myself. I forgive Me for not being a 'good enough' child to make my 'mom' happy and I forgive her for throwing me under a bus emotionally. Unless she owns her abuse and sincerely asks for forgiveness and apologizes to both my sister and I for being an abusive bully who took out her life frustrations on innocent children? That I won't forgive. Maybe ever.

I will hold my parents accountable indefinitely, and their parents that laid the patterns down before them, however many generations back-

I encourage my children to hold me accountable, to examine inherited patterns, their impact and how they influenced their own decisions-

The way I perceive it, the patterns are dependent upon inequality, stemming from people treating others as less instead of equal in conjunction with people accepting being treated as less for a wide variety of reasons, mainly because they were taught to believe it-

Some filters distort, others are used to remove BS and clarify ..

'O was some pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us
It would frae mony a blunder fee us,
An' foolish notion...…….

Robbi Burns

In todays times I would take it for male and female, I've always liked If, we should trust ourselves while still empathising with other feelings about us and we should not place importance on appearances. That we should not stoop to low levels of behaviour even if they are done against us. It's a good philosophy.

Ah If. You do it disservice sharing only the first line nams although. About becoming a good man if I remember rightly.

"If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you but make allowances for their doubting too"

If you can keep your head when all about you are loosing theirs...….and blaming it on you...….

Rudyard Kipling.

It makes me think of the saying:

"Crazy people don't think they are going crazy, they think they are getting saner."

~John Locke

Whether you're the one who has estranged or the one whose been estranged, the pain as you say is real OceanMama and all who are in pain deserve and should receive our support.

Agree Smileless, it's always best to keep an open mind. Sometimes things are just what they appear on the surface, but often the truth is in the middle or hearing the other side can make things look very different. I find that often differing or unmet expectations often result in estrangement, but that's not to dismiss toxic people or dynamics.

Regardless, people's pain is real and we can support them with that.

Yes you're right OceanMama there are many influences in the lives of our AC just as there are in our own lives.

It adds so much more to the discussions here on GN when an open minded approach can be taken, when no one thing is ruled out simply because it doesn't fit with someone's personal experience and/or agenda.

Your posts are always caring, understanding, supportive and above all sincere PF as anyone familiar with them and you will know.

Hannah - I can assure you that I did not intend in any way to be condescending and I am very sorry if you thought that I did. I don't know you and I don't have any bias or preconceived views about your situation, but your posts do express a deep pain, for which I am genuinely sorry.

I have had a lot of support from GN for my own estrangement, which I am pleased to say is now at an end, so I just try to support others when I feel that they might find it helpful. I honestly have no axe to grind.

I was not saying that inexcusable actions should be excused, but that is not the same thing as forgiveness. It can be hard to forgive, not just for you but for all of us, and the worse the actions, the harder it is to forgive. I was just saying that, for your own peace of mind, you have to try to forgive her. Not for her sake, but for yours.

I am sending you a genuine, virtual hug.

Smileless, I don't doubt at all that some partners are indeed controlling and manipulative and are a factor in estrangement at times. That can be but one factor of many and I never make any assumptions about why someone is the way they are, make the decisions they do or about their parents. That is personally and professionally. It's often a complex web of things, people have many influences in their lives of which parents are only one. I am not estranged from my children (and may it stay that way) but I just can't assume the problem is with the parents where it happens. Sure, sometimes that is a big part of it.

Personally, we are estranged from my MIL. My MIL tells everyone it's my fault, people in her circle blame me too. Let them. MIL probably doesn't even know that since we married, every invitation she got to visit came from me, every gift her family got was chosen and organised by me, every phone call she got (even from her son) was encouraged by me. The estrangement still bothers me more than her own son because I would love to have had a relationship with her. Her bitterness eventually drove me to where I just decided to stop trying and let her son handle it. He didn't. She cut us off because we didn't involve her enough, in her eyes.

I hold her responsible for the estrangement but even so, can see there is a lot of complexity to how that played out, but I won't go into details.

I agree OceanMama that perhaps some who are quick to blame the parent do so because they can then tell themselves it will never happen to them.

I also agree that our AC make their own decisions but as we all know, there are some controlling and manipulative people out there, and domestic abuse isn't just physical, it can be emotional and financial.

Abusers alienate their 'victim' from close friends and family, making them reliant on them, their abuser, for their emotional and/or practical and financial needs.

I can understand why some may doubt the extent of the influence an AC's partner can have, had we not had personal experience we would I'm sure have felt the same.

I should add, that's not to say that parenting or third parties can't be a factor, just that it's not always that simple. I never assume why someone is estranged. I am always sure it is multi-factorial and complex.