The 'Perception Filter'...

Starblaze -- I guess the truth has a way of silencing some.

It doesn't matter. Estranged children have communicated their points in many different ways on this thread and others and they weren't listened to regardless of how they were made.

Nicely: ignored
Not nicely: See! EAC are so mean!

One reply from another 'rejected parent' was very telling, "So maybe we were incorrect in wanting or needing our children to support or fill our emotional needs. I dislike the label “wrong” for the implication that you or I did this emotional neediness on purpose to harm them. We didn’t."

So Parent 1 admits she expected her child(ren) to "fulfill her emotional needs" and Parent 2 ADMITS -- paraphrased -- "Well maybe that was 'wrong'ish but since it wasn't "on purpose" We did 'nothing wrong' so what are they upset about/why do they estrange/go No Contact?"

Allow Me:

So You as the parent/adult expected your children to "fulfill your emotional needs"... News Flash -- It is the duty/responsibility of a 'parent' to look after their children and their needs and NOT the other way around.

Parent 2 starts with, "So maybe we were incorrect..." There is no maybe there. It is 100% incorrect to expect any other person to meet YOUR 'emotional needs' let alone Your child(ren).

P2 goes on, "I dislike the label “wrong” for the implication that you or I did this emotional neediness on purpose to harm them. We didn’t." And here's another perception difference. EP's seem to think/believe that if they didn't mean/didn't know they were hurting Us that there is no 'damage' done...

Here's another News Flash -- It doesn't matter if you hit an animal on the road 'on purpose' or it darts out and you hit it 'accidentally' if the animal dies in either case? It's dead. The animal really cares very little about the 'intent' of the driver/parent from its POV. It is still dead. Parents are the 'drivers' in the family dynamic.

Parent 2 also admits to "emotional neediness" and that it does harm children... So how about owning that behavior and apologizing sincerely?

P2 also goes on to admit, “Wrong” also implies that you could have been the perfect parent but screwed up. Nope. This was what we learned as children, the lessons we absorbed from our parents and siblings."

So P2 is also admitting that they learned their dysfunctional thinking from their family AND they passed it on.

So what IS NOT happening? P2 like most EP's who might 'secretly know' why they are estranged can't/won't OWN their abusive behavior because it is so long term and systematic that who would forgive them for 'that'? Their children probably would IF they could say the words, "You are right about Me that I was an abusive parent and I understand that while we both understand that it wasn't my 'intent' what I was taught resulted in You being abused/damaged by Me. What can I do now that I understand my behavior WAS abuse to make Our relationship better?"

"I guess I was wondering If I did something wrong expecting them to meet my emotional needs." -- an EP asked that in a post I read today.

I wonder, depending on what 'side'/perception filter is used, the answer is on that.

So, is it wrong to expect your children to meet your emotional needs? I know my answer.

Woe is me = denial

Woah, it's me- = accountability

There is generally no "you are a perfect, innocent victim", it is more "this is the terrible thing that happened to you, its not your fault but it is your responsibility to move forward"

This is the difference. There really is a common theme: the inability to accept ANY responsibility. This past couple of pages on this thread prompted me to read The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact again. Just page after page of I DID NOTHING WRONG. No major surprise there.

I have seen parents, devastated at their child’s addiction, taking responsibility for all manner of things, just to make things right, to make things better. Of course, until the addicted individual is able to take responsibility for themselves, there will not be any progress.

I have seen estranged parents, posting on here for the first time, devastated at their estrangement, indicating where they feel they have gone wrong, willing to take responsibility for their part in the relationship, only to be told “You did the best you could.” “You’ve got nothing to feel guilty about.” “You were a good and loving mother.” They are discouraged from examining where they went wrong, because that will challenge the status quo. Those posters usually don’t stick around too long on here.

Then there are those who refuse to accept ANY responsibility.

It is no coincidence that there is a correlation between the posters who have been estranged long term and their refusal to take any responsibility for their part in the relationship breakdown. No family is perfect. No parent is perfect. No person is perfect. To claim otherwise isn’t only not fooling anyone, it is a massive red flag.

I don't believe the world will be worse for wear due to manner in which he expresses himself- I've listened to George Carlin, Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr and others, all of which didn't sugar coat life's harsh realities- I don't think anyone can put themselves out there like that without wearing their heart on their sleeve-

Spreading misinformation about family estrangement is not helpful. Validating dysfunctional ideology is what keeps the cycle of abuse going!

Good grief, that is the definition of being an enabler... Don't call out abusive behavior. As long as it makes someone 'feel good' and even if it comes at the expense of child abuse victims? Yeah, that's a hero.

People do not believe child abuse victims as is and having people like Sheri and Sharon writing stuff that validates dysfunctional thinking and puts all the blame of estrangement on AC is what keeps society from being educated...

See! See! This person agrees with Me and 'Our Side'. I guess the measure should be, does anyone else OUTSIDE of 'that group' also agree with what they are saying? Like a psychiatrist/psychologist/doctor? If the answer is no, then it's hurtful and should not be lauded.

Madgran -- I guess he probably gets his numbers from the same place most do. Logically, since he hears from thousands of abused children and since most of us didn't come from families with 99 siblings there has to be a co-relation between the number of abused children to abusive parents.

I think it's well established that there are no definitive studies/numbers on who is what when abuse and Narcissism are concerned.

That said, regardless of numbers, what stands out is his breakdown of what was written. He showed where the projection and gas-lighting was occurring etc. There are very key ways to 'spot' dysfunctional/abusive behavior and as he said, it's not difficult to spot if you know what to look for. And I guess he's heard "the pony story" a few times as well as "the 'wrong colored' car" as parent's stated reason for estrangement.

One of the ways to know when someone is dysfunctional/abusive is, IF you substitute Adult Child with Spouse or Ex-Spouse and it no longer becomes an "okay thought", then the problem is the parent. PERIOD. Any issues the AC may have is of no consequence IF the parent is abusive. Children (adult or minor) have NO POWER to stop a parent from abusing. That's why Ollie says the only way to stop the abuse is cutting off/No Contact. That's his opinion and he's free to speak it. I am on the fence on that myself.

It's interesting that some are only focused on what he said wrong and not anything of what he said that was correct. And yes he's insulting, he's sick and tired of the abuse and the gas-lighting and the BS that these type of abusers throw around and victim blaming/shaming their children while crying they are the 'true victim'. On that he and I agree.

Madgran77 I doubt research sources in terms of statistics for statements such as "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags" exist! If any such studies existed, I would love to read them too! But I don’t know how a study into percentages of a population being narcissistic toxic scumbags could be set up, never mind carried out.

From reading your posts over the years though, I think that you are an incredibly intelligent woman and that you know “data” into such a claim doesn’t (and couldn’t) exist. And I understand the point you are making.

Regarding people saying what others want to hear ...I think that is quite often the case with stuff on the internet..."experts" say what the "group" they are speaking to wants to hear

I absolutely agree with you. However the individual we are discussing doesn’t sell himself as an expert on anything. And his “group” is made up of abuse victims, not solely child abuse victims of abusive parents.

I understand that from his work he will have access to many many examples of toxic, abusive parents

And toxic, abusive spouses, in laws, adult children, employers, extended family, friends, religious communities etc. He may have had abusive parents, but that is not his focus. He doesn’t hesitate to bring to the writer’s attention their own dysfunction and if he percieves that individual to in fact be the abuser, then he will let them know.

It is the reason there is a Reddit thread dedicated to him - from scorned writers who didn’t like what he had to say, to those who disagree with his political views (I certainly don’t share his political viewpoint, but nor do I think anyone should be crucified for having a difference of opinion to me either).

That's true Madgran and not just with what's available on the inter net. It stands to reason that EAC will want to read about and hear from those talking about estrangement from their perspective, just as EP's do the same from their's.

To say that Sharon Wildey only says what EP's want to hear can be said about anyone who writes for that particular audience and equally applies to anyone whose audience is EAC.

Hi Holy Hannah My question about research earlier in the thread was not about Sharon W but about the earlier video. I posted as below:

*I have listened to the video. I am wondering where his research sources are in terms of statistics for statements such as "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags" referring to "baby boomers" as a generation. I understand that from his work he will have access to many many examples of toxic, abusive parents but I dont understand how that can translate to "a large percentage" of an entire generation ...presumably across the world.

Does anyone know if he gives sources for that data ...I couldnt find any details but I know I have a tendency to miss links in videos etc if they aren't staring me in the face (or even if they are sometimes!! ?)*

@HolyHannah, but none of that matters because she didn’t insult anyone!

Madgran -- If you read the list of 10 things she is putting on to EAC as I posted, it is nothing but about her feelings/the parent's feelings. There is nothing on that list that is accurate or backed by any clinical research that I have ever read.

There is so much dysfunctional thinking at play it is jaw dropping. Estrangement/No Contact is "violent abuse" and "this is torture". Full stop. This person doesn't even understand what abuse IS. You cannot abuse someone if you have no contact with them and it's certainly not "torture" to choose not to have a relationship with someone, even a parent.

If an ex-spouse was saying anything like that about their former partner everyone would be saying, "You have serious attachment issues you need to deal with. Your spouse leaving you is not abuse or torture. It is not up to your ex to worry about your medical concerns, you are an adult and should be able to look after yourself. If your spouse left and it shortens your life, what can they do about that? Should they stay in an unhappy relationship to spare you? What makes your happiness more important then your spouses choice to leave? If you can't build a new relationship after the divorce, how is it their fault if you end up alone forever?"

Yet you substitute child into those same comments/points and now those attitudes are okay? Scary creepy as far as I can see.

Also before I go to bed, those same sources of information and books that I have read talk at length about abusive behaviours/traits/characteristics/fleas or whatever you want to call them that can damage the estranged child's future relationships if left unchecked. There is generally no "you are a perfect, innocent victim", it is more "this is the terrible thing that happened to you, its not your fault but it is your responsibility to move forward". The focus is very much on healing.

I have never met an estranged child or "expert" recommending estrangement for anything less than physical, sexual or emotional abuse though. This is important. Most also give very clear pictures of what abuse is too.

I don't know the answer to your question Madgran but I do know that yes there are "experts" who advise no contact but there are also many who also give advice for setting boundaries, grey rock and all sorts of ways to maintain a relationship with an abusive parent. I know because I was very relieved to find I had tried them all before estrangement without even knowing there were hundreds of thousands of other estranged children out there. It was very important to me to know I had done my absolute best. Estrangement carries enough guilt as it is. Also very frustrating that three guilt I feel doesn't really belong to me but my mum.

I'm rambling tired

I have looked at the link again and still cant find any links to research. I assume no one else has either as no one has come back on my question?

Regarding people saying what others want to hear ...I think that is quite often the case with stuff on the internet..."experts" say what the "group" they are speaking to wants to hear. I can't comment directly on Sharon W.

HolyHannah is that from The Devil’s Dilema: Abadoned Parents? I haven’t read the book, so cannot comment, but your summary makes for a disappointing read. More of the same really - what about me? Look at what you’re doing to me? I DID NOTHING WRONG? And even if I did (which I didn’t) look at the effect your actions are having on me!

This is a review by Issendai:

An incoherent mess whose central idea is that estrangement is a violent hate crime, and that people who cut off their parents are trying to emotionally, spiritually, or even physically murder them. The author is so wrapped up in her own perspective that even when she addresses estranged adult children directly, most of her examples of how estrangement is affecting the adult children's lives are actually examples of how their parents are affected. She truly can't see beyond her own pain and its world-swallowing importance.

Her advice is beyond awful. For example, she believes that if someone is an alcoholic or a drug addict, they need their family's help and support, and it's cruel to cut them off. She recommends that children of addicts go to Al-Anon to learn how to resume a relationship with their parents with appropriate boundaries. (Fortunately, Al-Anon understands ideas like "let the addict hit bottom" and "put your own oxygen mask on first.") When a parent can't get through to their married child, she recommends getting the child's spouse's parents and siblings involved. What she recommends is a list of the kinds of behaviors that get parents cut off.

Interestingly, the author is the subject of quite a few legal studies. In 1993, after a two-month courtship and a seven-week engagement, her fiance, Richard Springs, broke up with her... and she sued him for breach of promise to the tune of $178,000. The case was eventually thrown out, and Wildey sued a personal friend who gave her legal counsel, claiming the friend's bad advice amounted to malpractice and caused Wildey to lose the case. Both cases were shot through with badly written briefs, opportunistically reinterpreted evidence, and interpretations of the law that went beyond incompetent and into delusional. The legal analyses of the cases are fascinating reading, and shed light on the teen years of the children who are now estranged from Wildey.

Quite a few estranged parents do find comfort in this book, but mainly because it reflects their own grief and pain. It makes them feel less alone. That's a worthy goal. But what the book doesn't do is contain insight into estrangement or effective advice for reconciling

As someone who works in addiction, the comments in bold are horrifying and so very, very dangerous.

Apart from that one EP you posted before I have never seen any estranged parent say the things I need to to end estrangement Holyhannah. Unfortunately those estranged parents who have amassed a large following give terrible advice that will only alienate their followers children further. Estranged children are not to be listened too when we have a lot to say that could help end estrangement. In fact, even posters here that were thoroughly kind and gentle had to be bullied away, to protect the status quo here.

Smileless -- Sharon just says what EP's want to hear. Everything is their child(ren)s fault and she offers zero advice to ending estrangement.

She should have added #11 -- The way you treat your parents causes Global Warming.

The fact that you agree with that speaks volumes. Sharon (from what I have read) has managed to alienate ALL her living adult children. She's another expert at being estranged not an expert on estrangement. But she did NOTHING to warrant estrangement with her attitude such as it is...

It's shocking isn't it. Not every EP's experience of course but some, if not all of the 10 points are experienced by many EP's. One may not expect any of them to be an abusive EP's experience but then not all parents are estranged because they were abusive.

What I like about Sharon's contribution to the subject of estrangement is that she doesn't need to resort to insults. She wouldn't say about EAC for example that "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags".

That alone makes her work worthy of consideration even if ultimately it's disagreed with.

When "bred" to be a goat, anything you choose to do outside of the framework of the stable will be considered poo and stinky- Not gold, not roses-

Blimey

Sharon W. says this to EAC, “Here is a short form list of what is happening to your life:

1. You are practicing hate. -- Estrangement is practicing hate? Nope.

2. You are practicing violent abuse toward your parents and to your own family. -- Walking away is "violent abuse"? Hardly.

3. The way you treat your parents causes them physical and emotional pain. -- That's a two way street.

4. The way you treat your parents causes them to develop mental diseases such as PTSD, depression, obsessive thoughts, low self esteem, aggressive and self destructive behavior, distrust of entering relationships, isolation, anxiety, panic attacks and obsessive thought of suicide. -- If a fully mature adult cannot handle rejection to the point of ending up with those conditions due to estrangement, their mental health likely was not as good as they claim it was (I was a 'good' parent) to begin with. Healthy parents raise healthy kids.

5. The way you treat your parents causes them to develop physical illnesses such as chronic toxic stress which leads to inflammation of body organs which leads to heart attacks, arthritis, and irritable bowel syndrome. -- Estrangement and abusive AC are the cause of all the parents physical ailments... Guilt trip much?

6. The way you treat your parents produces feelings of abandonment and ostracism which is experience as physical pain on a daily basis. This is torture. -- A tad dramatic and more guilt tripping...

7. The way you treat your parents shortens their life expectancy by 11.4%. That takes away about 9 ½ years of life on the average. -- I'd love to know where those stats came from...

8. The way you treat your parents condemns them to living alone without close relationships experiencing severe loneliness the remainder of their lives. -- So you're unable to build any meaningful relationship if a child estranges?

9. The way you treat your parents is a hate crime against your own children and those of 3 generations to follow you. -- At least that's admitting that abuse IS generational...

10. The way you treat your parents condemns your own children to depression, low self esteem, the inability to love unconditionally and potential addictive behavior. Imagine what it is doing to you and your family or better yet go to a doctor and ask.” -- Yeah... I did that. My doctor wouldn't agree with this list either.