The 'Perception Filter'...

That's part of the reason I get so cross when people say "get over it". I am glad though that I don't have the false confidence and high self-esteem needed to decide I am over it and perfect the way I am. I might not be perfect the way I am and then people around me would suffer for it and ultimately so would I.

I didn't understand until much later in life. So many wasted years anxious and depressed, thinking I wasn't good enough. I've achieved so much since estranging but after living a half a lifetime conditioned to believe lies about myself it's hard to shake completely. I'm still learning more.

The difference between us as observers, according to your stories, is that you connected the dots and I did not until much later on-

I continued walking into tornados and make observations- I have to hold myself accountable for that- I didn't look at what I was doing, as in the "walking in"- I only came into view when assessing the outcome/exit/damage done-

Even when I (mind) wasn't observing, my body was keeping a recording-

Blessed are the days when I wake and for a few, beautiful, fleeting moments, the tape is erased-

"Much later on down the road I was told it wasn't me that people get mad at, it's what I see-"

OMG Yes... Notice my ignored/not responded to comment about the BAU of the FBI. They are acknowledged/accredited with being able to analyse behavior... And yet some claim "every estrangement situation is different/unique."

I started to really see the patterns of dysfunction after age 10. And what 'adult'/ANY 'parent' wants to think that a 10 year old is their mental equal in any regard, let alone point out their glaring hypocrisy OR any of the other 'things' I saw?

What I saw was a "clean window view" of my 'family' and what they saw was ME being the "dirty laundry" that the neighbor was hanging...

Both perspectives can be acknowledged but that doesn't make each equally correct/right... 100 people can state/believe that 2+2=5... The person that says, "Nope. Still FOUR." can be out-voted to infinity by the majority... They'll still be correct at the answer of FOUR.

HolyHannah, I lifted the fire and vase from a song titled Our House off Déjà Vu by Crosby, Stills & Nash- Not the Madness Our House song .. but I like that one also ..

The rest is me-

I've been working with onions this week, peeling away one layer at a time- When I got to the center of one, I remembered something-

I'd picked up a free calendar at a gas station many years ago and began to use it as a journal- With the squares being as small as they were I had to condense my daily thoughts to a sentence- Black and white cat on railroad tracks watching traffic- Spooky Mylar balloon with shredded ribbon slowly floating in a ditch- Dead Amarillo in the middle of road holding a Corona- She stacked seashells according to size on a windowsill-

In between the "things" I saw I began to record occurrences- And then began to notice a pattern of behavior- When the person I was observing saw it they got pissed off and said what are you doing? Keeping score? Holding a grudge? Then tore it up, threw it away and said don't do that anymore-

The thing is, I was too ignorant to score keep to begin with and I would have been the one to be pissed off if I was holding a grudge- But I was too naive to do either or it didn't interest me because I was immersed in what I was learning-

Much later on down the road I was told it wasn't me that people get mad at, it's what I see-

rosecarmel, you said, "When born into a moving train wreck, the motion of the tumbling seems normal- Once grown, you get catapulted out the window and onto yet another wreck headed in the opposite direction- It's different- The tumbling is slower, there's less debris in your eyes- The moving streak of kaleidoscopic color begins to take shape, you begin to see- The forest, the trees, each other's scars- Every inch damaged- They step off the train- Someone lights a fire, someone places flowers in a vase and then start a family together -"

I don't know if that's original from You or copied from elsewhere but that is one of the most profound things I've read in a long time. And oddly, "train wrecks" like butterflies were one of the examples I learned of in therapy of the real life 'emotional disaster' CEA creates in victims. Who has ever heard of a 'good' train-wreck?

And yet abusive parents and enablers will chime, "But you survived the train wreck." just like one EP said that an abused child, who wrote a book and was 'making money' from her self proclaimed 'abuse', should give part of the proceeds of her book to her mother on the grounds that, "If it wasn't for your mother you wouldn't be here to write that book."

Yet "abandoned parents" can write books and are lauded as 'heroes' to the "living bereaved" and the idea of sharing that wealth/paying restitution to their victim(s) is not only NOT 'on the table' but it's added with the, "They don't deserve 'anything'." and the cutting them out of the will.

An Estranged Parent said -- "This is something I have always thought about and really haven’t a clue as to the answer. I know that we all love with a different depth of capacity. How can our EC turn their backs on the very people who raised them and not give a hoot if they are dead or alive? Can they really love their spouses, their children? Are they capable of feeling love for anyone. In my case, I know with certainty that my ES loves his children, but in my heart I know he married someone who is very damaged even more so than he is and I think in order for his own survival, he in his mind pretends that all is well

When born into a moving train wreck, the motion of the tumbling seems normal- Once grown, you get catapulted out the window and onto yet another wreck headed in the opposite direction- It's different- The tumbling is slower, there's less debris in your eyes- The moving streak of kaleidoscopic color begins to take shape, you begin to see- The forest, the trees, each other's scars- Every inch damaged- They step off the train- Someone lights a fire, someone places flowers in a vase and then start a family together -

Honestly, aspects of my thoughts about my relationship probably change over time as I gain new knowledge, new insight and new language to express myself. I wouldn't be surprised if emotions like anger and frustration have impacted what I said or for times I have seized onto possibilities and later discarded them in my journey to fully understand myself and that relationship.

I agree Starblaze Nothing is static least of all in emotions and pain, and the impact those have on how something is expressed. Also audience changes how we express ourselves too. Potential damage indeed.

Thank you Sparkling for your lovely post. You're right it is bullying and I suppose it is a waste of time replying because my replies are in the main ignored, probably because apart from churning out the same old, same old those, who persist in trying to pull me down, have nothing of any real value to say.

You don't to have shared someone else's experience to be able to empathise with them. Thankfully the vast majority here are able to put their personal agendas, and any bitterness and anger they may feel, to one side and support others.

God bless you too.

Smileless, please cease to respond to Holy Hannah, she plays the victim and turns everything you say to suit her, it is bullying. I know you are more than able to stick up for yourself but trying to justify yourself to someone with her mindset is just a waste of energy. The comments you made concerning the way you were nearly destroyed, any person with a speck of humanity would feel for you. I am not estranged but I have empathy for those that are, I know I can never feel as you do completely, but it could happen to any one of us, things can turn on a sixpence, non of us can be complac,.nt. you have to wonder about the children of such people with such bitterness in their hearts, they are to be pitied. It’s hard times for all of us. God bless.

If your saying it's wrong to make everything you've ever said stand forever for appearances, I agree. There's no shame in changing your mind and/or regretting something you said in the past.

That said there's nothing wrong with standing by what you've said in the past, not for the sake of appearance, but because for you, nothing's changed. Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you've said to do so is wrong Starblaze.

Honestly, aspects of my thoughts about my relationship probably change over time as I gain new knowledge, new insight and new language to express myself. I wouldn't be surprised if emotions like anger and frustration have impacted what I said or for times I have seized onto possibilities and later discarded them in my journey to fully understand myself and that relationship. Not everything that is said has to stand forever but of you try to make it, for appearances, it will probably cause some damage somewhere.

So you've reprinted what I've posted in the past, not because you want to further the discussion on this thread or any discussion on estrangement, but to attempt to reinforce your view that my story has changed; well it hasn't changed HolyHannah.

I've always said that our estrangement is due to our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour. Manipulating and controlling another person is abuse.

Yes, our son was abusive toward us in writing and verbally. He and his wife continue to abuse us, to cause us pain by denying us contact with our GC.

He almost destroyed me, and there's no way I could risk contact with him again.

I pity you HolyHannah. Those words came from the heart, a heart that was broken. If I saw those words written by an EAC I wouldn't dream of trying to use them against them, to further my own agenda, to try and discredit another poster just because they're opinions differ from my own. To attempt to gaslight the person who'd written them.

He's both; he's in an abusive relationship with his wife and he has, and continues to abuse us and his wider family. His GM, who still lives a few doors closer to them than we did, still occasionally sees him walk past her living room window, with her GGC who she doesn't know.

I don't know if after so many years of being controlled and manipulated, he's aware that that is what his life has become. If having lost his family, apart from occasional contact with his brother, and friends he'd had since childhood, if he still feels the way he did when he told his wife he'd given everything up for her.

As any reasonably intelligent person can see, the two are not mutually exclusive. An adult can be in an abusive relationship and abusive.

Sparkling -- You said, "Most of the grandparents on here are not abusers by any means."

"Most" is not all. And how is anyone supposed to tell which parents/grandparents are likely to be the abusive ones when EVERY estranged parent claims little to no part of their contribution to being estranged? I submit that the way to 'tell' is by their actions and behaviors and words/language they use.

Anywhere where EP's congregate there is bound to be abusive ones that are getting the 'rewards' of their 'questionable parenting' -- being cut off.

Now, how many fall into which "category" is what is up for debate. There are many "red flags" on what dysfunctional thinkers/abusers say/act like and they are all well documented.

"What would it take to end the NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy perhaps?" Well maybe Pallas, if our ES was to do all of the aforementioned there may be a chance of ending the NC but not necessarily."

So according to you Smileless your son was abusive toward you. Now your story is he is in an abusive relationship. Do you see why some are having trouble believing your narrative?

"Our ES and his wife are our abusers and their weapon of choice is their deafening silence and their refusal to allow their children to know their paternal GP's and us to know them."

"It took me two years to understand that the only way I could be safe was to remain NC with our son. He almost destroyed me, and there's no way I could risk contact with him again."

So yes. Your narrative on why you are estranged has flipped. Trying to gaslight MotherofDragons by saying your story has not changed is inaccurate at best and a lie at worst.

Which is it? Was he abusive to you or a victim of his abusive wife?

It sounds both interesting and well researched Madgran. I remember how confident and loving our ES used to be. It's tragic to know how much he's changed.

The strategies they employ may be subtle but are no less frightening and destructive.

I watched a good friend's marriage break down, at the beginning I supported their marriage, after estranging my mum and getting help to understand her behaviour I could then see my friend was being abused. Once you learn to see it, it's just obvious. My friend did not see it until years later. Yes my friend could and did during the divorce process list examples of those different types of behaviour as she was asked. They over lap of course but she needed examples of each.

My friends mum was an alcoholic, we talked a lot about our mums over the years. Her mum drank herself to death so even though she helped me to estrange and thought my mum was awful, she couldn't see her mum as abusive. In counselling she was shocked the counsellor wanted to talk about her mum so much. In order to recover fully, the abuse received before her marriage had to be addressed so she could avoid past patterns. It's been a devastating few years for my friend but she is so much happier and healthier now.

Yes *Smileless ...Geoff and Yasmeen. It has developed over about a year. At the moment Yasmeen is in prison accused of trying to murder Geoff who is still manipulating evidence etc.

What I found interesting was watching the gradual subtle strategies utilised by the Geoff character and the impact on Yasmeen who arrived on the street as a confident powerful personality. An interesting fictional interpretation.

Was that a recent story line Madgran? I stopped watching Coronation Street a few years ago when they were doing the story about Tyrone and his abusive partner. We were in the early months of our estrangement and I found it rather uncomfortable viewing, and haven't watched it since.

Hi Motherofdragons

That is a summary list of coercive behaviour that I have seen too. It always strikes me that having them listed separately presumably for clarity can be misleading as of course the behaviours are not separate entities, and influence the same outcomes. The list can give the impression that each behaviour is separate from the others.

For instance "Who they see" might be stopping a victim seeing friends; or family; or specific family members; or specific friends.

This one might be achieved using :

*Repeatedly putting him down, such as saying he is worthless.
* Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising him.
*Making threats or intimidating him.

* Monitoring his time might also be supported by the above and also by:
*Monitoring him via online communication tools or spyware

•Those are just a couple of examples.

In the context of an EP describing those behaviours (and I am not referring to anyone specific here), I think it likely that they will be describing the impact of the behaviours from their perspective ie estrangement ...partly because they may well not know the detail of what behaviours have created the situation. They just know the impact from their perspective and presumably what they have observed in the lead up to the estrangement.

On that subject I am not sure whether you are UK based? If you are, have you been watching the storyline on Coronation Street. It was an interesting interpretation of coercive control and of persuading the victim to believe things about themselves and others. A difficult subject and I found it interesting to watch how it developed gradually over time.

Thank you Sparkling yes it took courage to start again and I think a degree of bloody mindedness and determination to make the most of our lives.

Sparkling Now THAT was passive aggression. I sure those of us estranged children who receive unwanted contact wish our mums agreed with you.

Not at all akin to saying basically “I don't disagree with what you are saying but why does it not apply to everyone“

I would be very glad not to be in touch with an estranged child if they were constant hammering home the same point until you wearily submit to their view point. The year after year listening to it would be like a prison sentence.
Smileless I have heard your story, I know how devastated you were and it must have taken courage to start again. I wouldn’t try justifying your reasons to people that just twist everything. I won’t be commenting on this particular post, but like banging your head on a brick wall.

I missed your comment Smileless I apologised exactly for my part and noone else's.

I am genuinely sorry for my behaviour then, as I told you then, you were reminding me of my mum with the way you were pulling up everything I said and reversing it, then continuing to do so when I asked you to stop. That's not an excuse and I have since worked on my defensiveness as I said I would then.

To clarify though, I still do not agree with reversing statements instead of a just understanding the person's feelings, them saying they were abused is not an insult to any parent who is not abusive.

Again, I never said anything truly nasty to you, those posters were banned I believe as they were violating rules. I have had maybe 1 comment removed my whole time here. I simply told you how you were making me feel with that behaviour and why I was having a strong reaction to it. My feelings didn't matter enough to you for you to stop doing what you knew was pushing my buttons.

Anyway, I know you need the last word and you are welcome to have it, it's just a shame you won't listen to me, I am the one who knows how I think and how I feel.

Maybe I should be flattered that you appear to take such an interest in my story but I'm finding it rather tedious so wont be responding to you again

I’m uncomfortable not responding to your last comment, so I will.

Please don’t be flattered. I don’t have any particular interest in your story specifically, but I refuse to allow you to try and gaslight me.

I know what you have said in the past, I remember what you have said in the past, I’m not going to permit you to tell me that I’m imagining it or that I’m mistaken. I’m not making anything up Smileless and it has taken me seconds to go back and find it.