The 'Perception Filter'...

Oh have you asked Sparkling what she meant then Smileless?

Well. Context clues: telling EACs they should not be on gransnet has literally happened. You didn't call them up on it when it was said outright so honestly I don't expect you to care that Holyhannah has been badly slandered right in front of you now.

What are you doing then, Madgran?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Starblaze but paraphrasing or not, it's wrong to accuse a poster of telling another poster to go away, when that is not what they said.

Madgran "I am also not telling other people what they are saying, trying to say, trying to do or anything else"; unlike some.

I keep saying "Moving on"... and then coming back because I am being told what I am trying to say or trying to do, inaccurately. Back to the Oozelum Bird methinks!!! Sorry everyone else, sure this must be very boring for you watching the Hamster Wheel of repetition!

Madgran, you keep trying to sort and separate the chaotic, interconnected nature of multi-faceted relationships in an effort to prove that "one" in a collective, connected bunch isn't accountable for their reflection, refraction, interaction or lack of

I am NOT trying to prove that anyone is not responsible for their reflection, refraction, interaction or lack of! I am also NOT trying to separate anything to prove anything.

I am also not telling other people what they are saying , trying to say, trying to do or anything else!!

Smileless I was paraphrasing but that's what was implied. Also this thread is here because *Holyhannah started it. It is your choice to comment on it as it is for Sparkling

No one forces any of us to read threads if we don't like or agree with the OP.

This isn't HolyHannah's thread Starblaze no one owns a thread just because they started it and Sparkling didn't say anyone should go away.

Sparkling -- Read what I write and explain how what I am saying is "wrong". Ad hominem attacks are so classic of dysfunctional thinkers.

"You need 'help'." (from your point of view) is not a healthy way to disagree in a conversation.

It really falls back to, "I don't like what you are 'saying' so just be quiet!"

Sparkling please stop policing threads and telling other members that they have issues and should go away. You have no right to say things like that.

You came to Holyhannah and her thread. That is your choice. We also get to make our own choices.

Why does it matter if soooo many EP's say that HolyHannah? That doesn't make what they're saying untrue does it. So that's something your mother would say, what's your point?

Presumably if your mother said so, it would be a lie but you can't judge every other EP on your mother's behaviour, anymore than I can judge every EAC's behaviour on our ES's. If I were to do that, I'd regard every EAC's decision to estrange their parent(s) as being due to a third party, and disregard everything else they say.

When and EAC posts on GN about their abusive childhood, their toxic/narcissistic parent(s) I don't refuse to believe them or try to undermine their story because it doesn't concur with mine. Why do you constantly do that to the EP's that post on GN?

If you are saying you know or are telling someone you know the cause of their estrangement, just STOP. Take on board what they're telling you, do them the courtesy of listening to what they have to say without judging them because of your own personal experiences.

MotherofDragons you can understand why it's easier to lay blame with a third party yet you don't seem to be able to accept that some estrangements are because of the influence of a third party.

Sparkling, you're repeating yourself .. again ..

Madgran, you keep trying to sort and separate the chaotic, interconnected nature of multi-faceted relationships in an effort to prove that "one" in a collective, connected bunch isn't accountable for their reflection, refraction, interaction or lack of-

It cannot be done ..

The end result of your effort is "Golden" ..

You cannot talk about a "relationship" and then suggest "one" in that relationship isn't a given

I didn't mean the people in the relationship. I meant the facets in a relationship

Moving on....!

Yes dependent on a cause, but in relationships one cause is not a given

Exactly! You're cherry-picking!

You cannot talk about a "relationship" and then suggest "one" in that relationship isn't a given!

You're psychologically cherry-picking and trying to prove that some parents have zero impact

I have NEVER said that some parents have zero impact and I do not believe that and never have. Again I have no idea how you can interpret anything I have said as that!

As I said Moving on!

HolyHannah, you need professional help. No one is equipped on here to deal with your issues, you just go round in circles trying to convince people to agree with your perceptions, when it doesn’t work you start another post exactly the same vein.

There are connections between causes and effects
Obviously!

Anything that arises is dependent

Yes dependent on a cause, but in relationships one cause is not a given. Which brings me back to my original points made up thread.

I will not be repeating myself as I think we will be going round in circles for ever a bit like the "OozelumBird"!

Moving on!

You're psychologically cherry-picking and trying to prove that some parents have zero impact- But hey ho!

There are connections between causes and effects: Nothing is separate-

Anything that arises is dependent-

And I am puzzled as to how you could interpret any of my comments as saying that "nothing moves" but hey ho!

I didn't say interconnectedness was static! I said it is not the same as cause and effect and I meant in relationships...yes interconnectedness does impact on cause and effect but it is not an absolute given that a specific interconnectedness is the cause of a specific effect.

Now we could get into a scientific debate here about Newtons Orbital Cradle but as we are discussing relationships I am not going to.

Holding on to the view that a relationship has a stronger base could prove even more devastating when it breaks-

Interconnected though is not the same as cause and effect in my view

Yes! I can see that you see that, too!

That interconnectedness is static: Nothing moves-

I respect you view -- even if it isn't scientifically possible ..

They are ever changing - yes

and fragile - some have a stronger base than others for a variety of reasons

MotherofDragons -- This is why I put my foot down when other people tell me how I am feeling. Or declaring that I am feeling certain ways...

That is exactly what abusers say/do. "Oh Hannah is angry so that's why..." or "Hannah and I were sooo close." and it's like that is now fact/reality. However, that only puts into consideration how SHE thinks I felt and not what I actually felt.

Abusers not only do not care about their victims feelings, they deny their victim even HAS feelings. It's easier to abuse something if you don't see 'it' as an autonomous being with feelings that should be considered. Even if an abuser recognizes that their victim does have feelings, they ignore those feelings because they are unimportant/irrelevant -- at least to the abuser...

I'm sure my mom would say, "Hannah was such a happy child. Always smiling and bubbly." I would say, "Yes, like every Scapegoat kid I acted the way I was told to act. I was told I was 'happy' so I acted 'it'. But I had suicidal thoughts starting at age 10. Does that sound like a 'happy' healthy child???"

And she would retort with, "But you were a happy child."

If you are saying you know or telling someone what they are feeling, just STOP. No person can know what another is feeling unless they tell YOU what they are feeling. What you think the other person is feeling is irrelevant and often incorrect.