I find articles like this quite helpful.

Thank you HolyHannah - Yes the argument showed me that my mum is just as toxic as my dad. They seriously do believe that its up to others not to make their anger erupt, you put it beautifully.

I hope I can move on now, and stop feeling sorry for them. I'm a little sad, pretty lonely at times. I have many friends but they all work a lot and I only see them on weekends, hubby works full time. I miss having someone to talk to and shop with.

Ironflower -- This is beautiful:

What You said -- "Okay, lets move forward and forget it. We just want to know if we see you that we won't get the silent treatment, eye rolling or pushing the boys away from you"

Mum - "Not promising that, you hurt us and we are angry".

Because your Mum was 'hurt' and even though You were willing to let it go, your 'mom' still had to resort to, and this is my Abuser to English translation -- "I'm always angry which is why I lash out and hurt people. You just told me what in my behavior is unacceptable, the eye rolling or pushing the boys away from Me BUT because being angry is my 'normal self' of course I can't promise I won't repeat the behavior because that is My (dysfunctional) 'normal'."

When a 'parent' talks like that? Believe them and then go No Contact.

Instead of owning/accepting that she IS an 'angry person'/abuser my 'mom' like yours justified and self-excused her own behavior by declaring that she was only 'angry' because the people around her "made her that way".

Abusers/dysfunctional thinkers are ANGRY as their 'normal'. They believe it is up to everyone else around them to make sure their wrath doesn't 'erupt'. That is a LIE. There is no amount of anything that will 'fix' their anger no matter how much those around 'them' try.

Great posts Ironflower, thank you for sharing.

Ironflower I wish I could have put it as beautifully as you

Ironflowrr such wise and thoughtful posts. Thankyou

That video is so good. It definitely describes trying to talk to my parents. Our entire conversation went in circles:
Mum - "you need to get over the past and stop holding a grudge"
Me - "Okay, lets move forward and forget it. We just want to know if we see you that we won't get the silent treatment, eye rolling or pushing the boys away from you"
Mum - "Not promising that, you hurt us and we are angry"

It was ridiculous. I was supposed to get over it, but they are allowed to be angry that I "took the grandkids away from them"

The articles rang so true for me. I couldn't read the comment from the mother realising she was abusive, its infected with a trojan. Some of you might need a quick virus scan.

I could tick pretty much every box on the two articles. Silent treatments, guilt trips, and being made to feel that I had to make my parents happy was my childhood.

It is really hard not to repeat what was done to us. Even now if I feel hurt, I feel an urge to withdraw. I am aware and try to control it. I don't ever want anyone to feel like I don't love them simply because of a hurtful word.

If you read the articles and find that some of your behaviour is there, try not to defend / justify or get angry at it. Instead just realise that we could be hurting our children and attempt to fix it. I showed an article to a coworker and he was instantly horrified to discover that he had been doing some of the behaviours to his girlfriend. He immediately told her, apologised and promised to try and change it.

When I tried to talk to my mum about past behaviours she was defensive. Even when questioning why she continued to leave me with a male that I told her had abused me (I was 3) and instantly she was defensive and saying it wasn't her fault. Not once did she ever show any guilt or empathy.

We are all human and I want to say every one can sometimes be dysfunctional, but I can't say that for certain. However as long as we recognise and try to change our behaviour so it doesn't hurt others, that's the important part. If my mum had even tried to show some remorse or empathy, then we could work on our relationship but no, the closest she came to remorse was 'we should have let you be parents because we didn't realise you would take the grandkids away.' Everything was focused on herself and nothing on our feelings.

We don't know if its more common that estrangement happens because of abusive parents. There is no study or evidence for this. I have actually seen the abusive DIL side of it (if MIL didn't pay all their bills, she would stop her seeing grandchildren). We view everything through our own window of our experiences and knowledge. There is always bias. I think it is a little unfair to say that the mum is a unicorn of EPs, honestly we don't know. She would more likely be a unicorn of abusive parents though.

Starblaze

I actually really needed to hear that right now

Admittance doesn't cancel damage done quite true. It can help the one whose been damaged to heal but it can't eradicate the scars. Those scars both physical and emotional my fade but they never disappear.

Admittance of the truth is just the first step in healing abuse.

Once the truth/reality is accepted then the next step becomes acknowledging how the behavior impacted the victim. This is where abusers again tend to fall flat.

Abusers want to throw out a quick, "I'm sorry you feel that way." and then want to carry on as 'normal'. Normal was what caused the difficulties/estrangement in the first place.

Abusers tell their lies so many times, that becomes their perceived "reality" that even when they do finally tell the truth, they immediately swing back to trying to re-tell, reestablish their lies as 'truth'.

Abusers are dysfunctional thinkers and even when you show them that their 2 + 2 is equaling 5 they will now argue that the answer is 4.

One of the rules of dysfunctional thinkers is that they are black/white thinkers. Only one person can be 'right' in a situation and it is always them. Even when the victim can show the blatant lie being fed to them (also known as gas-lighting) the unhealthy thinker will still try to twist out of reality.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rboCAJKMYrQ

Admittance doesn't cancel damage done

No it doesn't!

Madgran I guess it's up to you if you want to raise it with her so that she is aware of the problem. I tend to just ask people if they are OK so they think about whether or not they are in the situation. Empathy and understanding is usually the way to go.

Empathy and understanding indeed, but because of the problem both are easily misinterpreted! Raising it ...difficult road to negotiate precisely because of the lack of awareness/recognition of the problem.

I'm not disagreeing agree with what you say Starblaze, just pondering really!

Imagining discussions is a healthy coping mechanism but an unhealthy activity if expectations of desired outcomes are attached-

Vital conversations with my own mother occurred but weren't ongoing- They were over and done, end of discussion- Uh, no- Healing is an ongoing process, and if you care about healing you will aspire to discover new ways to navigate relationships-

Admittance doesn't cancel damage done- It's the tip of the iceburg- The glistening bit exposed to light, above the waterline-

Yes I thought that at the time Starblaze which is why I felt so close to her, thought we had a good relationship and felt she was happy being a part of our family.

Clearly I was wrong.

Loved. Autocorrect doesn't like love apparently

Smileless have you considered that she might have been saying what she needed you to be? That she maybe wanted to be parented and lived the way she obviously wasn't growing up?

Madgran I guess it's up to you if you want to raise it with her so that she is aware of the problem. I tend to just ask people if they are OK so they think about whether or not they are in the situation. Empathy and understanding is usually the way to go.

That's why it's so baffling that my estranged immediate family say I am mentally ill to the rest of the family but scream and shout at me and didn't want me to go to therapy. That's not how you treat people you genuinely believe to be mentally ill. Empathy and understanding is the normal route with people who are in pain.

Interesting post yesterday Madgran at 21.57 our son's ES wife raised the same with me regarding her relationship with her own parents and in particular her mother.

I remember on at least one occasion, she said she wished I was her mother. Hardly seems possible with all that's happened.

"responding to what she thinks they are saying/doing despite the evidence being the opposite" was something we noticed was happening increasingly, and not just with women of 'a certain age' but all women including friends, one she'd had since primary school until she cut that friend out.

Not really sure time will do it Starblaze sadly! As you know change happens through realisation and awareness of the problem.

Oh I understand you Madgran I suppose its probably a case of some people not knowing she has triggers, some not caring and some just deliberately setting them off as it is everywhere.

At least you understand she has been badly hurt and needs time to trust.

Smileless -- You said, "When our son estranged us and prevented us from seeing our GC it was the beginning of his abuse toward us, not an end to abuse because prior to that there had been no abuse."

Now I can see you are being honest and I respect that.

So now that you have acknowledged that you view His walking away/No Contact as Him 'abusing' you and You know He has never abused You... This is the time to be a PARENT.

Stop blaming your children... If the family unit is dysfunctional remember always the kids are not driving the train. YOU were the 'conductor'of the train...

That's the abuse cycle at its best, knowing you didn't like what was done to you but doing it to others.

In this case it is more that it possibly impacts on her wider relationships, how she views older women, responding to what she thinks they are saying/doing despite the evidence being the opposite!

Starblaze -- "The only thing you can do is work out if it's intentional. That's the problem I had for years, trying to work out if my mums behaviour was intentional because she knew she was raised by an abuser but didn't accept tha she was doing the same to me. Eventually I could see that what she was doing was intentional, especially as she saved that behaviour just for me so she could hide it."

I too wrestled with the question of did she 'know' what she was doing and I have concluded that yes, she did. I think most abusive parents DO know. I think that's why they have the same dismissive and lame stories that try to paint them as the innocent victims of their 'horrible'/abusive and immature AC all the while trying to silence others who see through them.

The shame of being exposed as the abusers that they are and how society would view them, keeps them invested in their denial. Abuse victims speaking out and exposing the tactics abusers use is the start of the end of generational dysfunction.

Madgran It's so sad when that happens. That's the abuse cycle at its best, knowing you didn't like what was done to you but doing it to others. The only thing you can do is work out if it's intentional. That's the problem I had for years, trying to work out if my mums behaviour was intentional because she knew she was raised by an abuser but didn't accept tha she was doing the same to me. Eventually I could see that what she was doing was intentional, especially as she saved that behaviour just for me so she could hide it.

I think the quickest/easiest tell on whether or not someone is being intentionally abusive is whether they apologise and make an effort to stop that behaviour when you call them out on it.

In estranged/abused child circles we call it "fleas". Behaviours we picked up in childhood that we otherwise wouldn't have.

It's a very big talking point.

No one wants fleas.

Those things are hard to see and get rid of but worth the effort.