Hope For Estranged Grandparents

Actually I don't know so perhaps you'd like to explain it to me Motherofdragons.

We should try and be careful of what we say and having seen a couple of your posts deleted today, I can understand why you may be worried about further deletions but for the record, your posts were not reported by me.

I'm sure you can't be bothered with anymore nonsense tonight, there's been plenty of that today already.

We all know that no judge has done this Starblaze, we've been discussing it for long enough.

"People like us will never stop the fight to prevent harm to children and we are already winning" that includes everyone who has posted on this thread, unless of course you'd like to name a poster who isn't fighting to prevent harm to children, and state exactly when and where they demonstrated this.

You know exactly what I’m talking about Smileless! But realistically I have to be careful about what I say, because you will immediately play the victim, attempt to have my post deleted (not before everyone has had the chance to read it though) and send out the bat signal, and I can’t be bothered with that nonsense tonight.

MotherofDragons you are pationately defending children and that is right and just. They are arguing because thats just the sort of people they are and they don't care how bad they look because they are backing each other up and egging each other on, and enjoying it.

You and I know that no judge has done this. Doesn't matter if it's possible. No judge has sent a parent to prison, effectively for cutting of a grandparent.

Given the growth in recognition of abusive behaviours, the vastness of education available on the Internet and all the new laws around emotional abuse, this will only go the other way, not towards imprisoning adult children with rubbish parents.

We had no proof, newer generations have recording devices at their finger tips, information in seconds, education in schools from organisations on what to do when they are unhappy, organisations all connected with staff trained on safeguarding children.

Soon it will be emotionally abusive parents going to prison. They won't ever get near their grandchildren.

People like us will never stop the fight to prevent harm to children and we are already winning.

We beat ours right!

❤️

What hole would that be then Motherofdragons? Perhaps you'd like to put your big girl pants on and be more explicit?

That's absolutely fine motherofdragons, you have total liberty to believe anything you like, no matter how foolish and misguided it is. But I suspect that you will lose sleep because it's the very thought that what I've told you just might be right that's causing you to believe I'm scaremongering. And it's fear that makes you angry

Thank you very much for allowing me to believe what I like. That is very considerate of you.

Do you actually think I’m going to lose sleep over your post? You need to check your ego.

I hope your fears are groundless

I hope you’re being a good boy for your mummy.

Well if you'll not lose any sleep over it Motherofdragons why are you getting so uptight and accusing those of us who are simply stating what the law is and what could happen within that law of scaremongering?

I want to reassure any parents reading that it is indeed scaremongering and that it is never going to happen.

It’s a fantastic bucket and spade, isn’t it Smileless. Perhaps you could use the spade to dig yourself out of that hole that you got yourself into on the Perception thread.

That's absolutely fine motherofdragons, you have total liberty to believe anything you like, no matter how foolish and misguided it is. But I suspect that you will lose sleep because it's the very thought that what I've told you just might be right that's causing you to believe I'm scaremongering. And it's fear that makes you angry. I hope your fears are groundless.

Well if you'll not lose any sleep over it Motherofdragons why are you getting so uptight and accusing those of us who are simply stating what the law is and what could happen within that law of scaremongering?

Nice bucket and spade Chewbacca

The light has just dawned

Huh?

Won’t make what truth go away? A parent isn’t going to get sent to prison for not following a court order granted in favour of a grandparent. I’ll happily eat your bucket of sand if it ever happens though! Until then, I’ll not lose any sleep over it, that’s for sure.

Ooops! The light has just dawned! Here's a bucket of sand for you to keep burying your head in; it won't make the truth go away but you'll be able to pretend it doesn't exist with this.

But the point of this thread is that the OP stated that she knew that such a law existed and could be enforced and there is irrefutable evidence to support that claim

No, that’s not the point of the thread, because it was never mentioned by the OP.

Much as you, and others, deplore this law, it remains a truism that it is only a matter of time before an estranged grandparent decides that they have nothing left to lose and proceeds to court. And if they have excellent legal representation and a sympathetic judge, they could very will win their case

It’s definitely not the law that I deplore!

It's at that point that the floodgates will open and there will be litigious grandparents queuing up to press their cases too. This isn't scaremongering. The law is set, ready and waiting for that first case to be made

It hasn’t happened yet though, has it? So I think I will worry about that when it does. Until then, it’s scaremongering.

You have no idea how wide of the mark that comment is motherofdragons, absolutely no idea at all

You have no idea how much I actually couldn’t give a f**k

You could be a 40 year old man living in your mother’s basement for all anyone knows. Jog on with that crap.

Not so good at understanding law in practice

You have no idea how wide of the mark that comment is motherofdragons, absolutely no idea at all.

Children. That is who will lose out in this instance.

Yes motherofdragons absolutely they will, there's no argument about that. But the point of this thread is that the OP stated that she knew that such a law existed and could be enforced and there is irrefutable evidence to support that claim. Much as you, and others, deplore this law, it remains a truism that it is only a matter of time before an estranged grandparent decides that they have nothing left to lose and proceeds to court. And if they have excellent legal representation and a sympathetic judge, they could very will win their case.

It's at that point that the floodgates will open and there will be litigious grandparents queuing up to press their cases too. This isn't scaremongering. The law is set, ready and waiting for that first case to be made.

It is a disturbing conversation I agree Motherofdragons and what makes it so is the fact that regardless of how many times it is stated, the message isn't getting through

So, you think it is more disturbing that some posters are choosing to maintain their position based on their own experience as opposed to estranged grandparents discussing the fact that they can send their child to prison for not co-operating with them? You have a strange view of the word disturbing.

P's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their children's GP's are awarded contact via a court order and they refuse to comply they could be looking at a custodial sentence

And as any lawyer would tell their client, yes, this could happen, but it has never happened and it is extremely unlikely to.

GP's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their AC refuse to comply with their contact court order, and they go back to court, that however unlikely, their AC could face a custodial sentence

And as any lawyer would tell their client, yes, this could happen, but it has never happened and it is extremely unlikely to.

If both sides are aware of all the possible outcomes it may make them realise that co-operation is the best way forward and that coming to a mutual agreement is better than going to court

So parents should be forced, using the threat of prison, to co-operate with a person who has no rights to their child?

And whilst of course it is helpful to be aware of all possibile outcomes, the determining factor is the probability of an outcome.

You are all good at citing law in theory. Not so good at understanding law in practice.

It is a disturbing conversation I agree Motherofdragons and what makes it so is the fact that regardless of how many times it is stated, the message isn't getting through.

P's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their children's GP's are awarded contact via a court order and they refuse to comply they could be looking at a custodial sentence.

GP's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their AC refuse to comply with their contact court order, and they go back to court, that however unlikely, their AC could face a custodial sentence.

If both sides are aware of all the possible outcomes it may make them realise that co-operation is the best way forward and that coming to a mutual agreement is better than going to court.

Stating what is law may be frightening, and could be classed as an ominous report though I disagree with that in this discussion, but it is not a rumour Motherofdragons.

You may be right that it is not a precedent a court would ever set but that's not the point is it. The point is that it is a precedent that could be set because the law has created that possibility and as I've previously posted, unless the law is changed no one can ever say that a P would not be given a custodial sentence for this particular offence.

I honestly don't know how else to explain it, but if some posters are unable or unwilling to accept that this is the law, there's nothing else to be said is there.

Honestly if this conversation wasn't so ridiculous it would be amusing

Would it be? Amusing?

It is a disturbing conversation to be having, quite frankly. Especially by grandparents who have been cut off from their grandchildren.

Any law will only "scaremonger" those who are afraid that they will lose out by it being invoked

Children. That is who will lose out in this instance.

Honestly if this conversation wasn't so ridiculous it would be amusing.

It doesn't matter if a legal precedent has been set. As the law currently stands, and as Chewbacca has posted this particular law came into effect after December 2008, this is the law.

If a judge decided to give a term of imprisonment to a P who refused to give a GP contact with their GC, against the court's ruling, the P's legal representative could then argue that there is no precedent for doing so, which would of course be correct if no P has ever been imprisoned for this.

The judge may or may not change his/her decision based on that argument and decide not to set a precedent in that case.
That does not alter the fact that, as the law currently stands, a P could be imprisoned for such an offence.

Scaremongering is defined as the spreading of frightening or ominous reports or rumours.

Yes, that's definitely the Oxford English dictionary definition of the word but I can't see how reporting the actual existence of a legal framework could be described as "scaremongering". Before an act becomes enshrined in law, it goes through many stages of review panels, both civilly, politically and legally and this particular law must have been ratified by all if those panels.

Any law will only "scaremonger" those who are afraid that they will lose out by it being invoked.

Pointing out what is possible as the law currently stands is not scaremongering

Scaremongering is defined as the spreading of frightening or ominous reports or rumours.

It hasn’t happened. It is unlikely to ever happen. It is not in the child’s best interests nor is it a precedent the courts would ever set. So, until it actually happens, saying that a parent will be sent to prison for not complying with the court order is simply a rumour. So, it is scaremongering.

I mean given the hurdles involved in even getting a case into court, never mind actually being granted a court order, why the determination to “prove” that a parent can be sent to prison for not complying with the order? I mean, can you even obtain permission to apply for a contact order in the first place?

So I can’t work out whether it is being thrown around on this thread to frighten parents or to empower grandparents. If it’s the former, it is scaremongering, if it is the latter, it is disgusting.

Do I think a parent should go to prison for this particular offence? No I don't

Thanks for sharing your view. Although, I don’t think anyone would be brave enough to admit it if they did.

I honestly don't know if anyone has been jailed for non compliance of an order HolyHannah That would 've research you'd have to conduct yourself if you felt so inclined. But in any event, the legal scaffolding is in place; all it needs is a determined enough grandparent and/or a sympathetic judge who is willing to set the precedent on their behalf. It's just a matter of time as to which occurs first, I would imagine.

Chewbacca -- A law does not have to be chronologically 'old' for the consequences to be deemed questionable to the 'crime'. Law makers have many things "on the books" but that doesn't mean that the case law has ever been employed.

When a law has not had a "legal precedent" set -- A case using the law/statute put before an actual court -- then the law essentially has 'no teeth'.

So the question becomes, has a "legal precedent" been 'set'? Has someone been jailed for non-compliance of that law?