Hope For Estranged Grandparents

We are now at page 25 and this thread is just going over the same old ground. With a chorus of “Tell me I’m right, tell me I’m right”. “I know the law”, “Apologise, apologise”.

Sigh.

Parents aren’t going to prison for not following a court order granted in favour of the grandparents. It hasn’t happened, it won’t happen. It is not in the child’s best interests which, as some claim, is paramount. How contradictory!

Anyone who wants to prove this as truth, who is so determined for this to be true, is morally questionable at best.

The logic is
Judges work in best interest of the child.
Is imprisoning or fining a parent in the best interests of a child?
No.
They won’t do it.

They have the power. They also have the responsibility. Responsibility to the child wins out.

Bibbity Thu 25-Jun-20 12:30:54 I don't need to find a case. I simply apply logic to the situation. Much easier. Yes, laughable that anyone can come on this thread and deliberately expose themselves to ridicule from not understanding simple logic. There are a few of them

You go and find one case. One single case where A broken CAO involving GPR has ended up with the parents being punished and ill buy it. But I bet you won’t

I’ve asked multiple posters to do this. Not one of them has.

perhaps you should provide evidence of that and I can tell the MSM so they can tell people they have no need to follow the orders?

People already know. That’s why they don’t follow them.

Nah Nonnie you’re OK. It’s sweltering here And the sweating baby on me is starting to wake up so I am going to go have some fun in the sun.

I’ve said my piece. I think you’re absolutely ridiculous. Laughable even.
You go and find one case. One single case where A broken CAO involving GPR has ended up with the parents being punished and ill buy it. But I bet you won’t.

Bibbity Thu 25-Jun-20 12:02:03 please explain the way your mind came to that conclusion? When you say 'no offence' it is quite clear that it is your intention to offend. I find such statements tend to say far more about the person who makes them than the person they are about.

I asked you for a link because when I posted something directly copied from a court order it was deleted on the grounds that 'it could not be verified' (I later did just that.) Presumably the same would apply to your comment which is an opinion and not copied from a legal document.

Bibbity Thu 25-Jun-20 12:04:22 perhaps you should provide evidence of that and I can tell the MSM so they can tell people they have no need to follow the orders?

Courts always have penalties listed. Of course they do! Because otherwise what would be the point?!

Just like there are laws. For example. It is illegal for anyone under 16 to have sex.

If two 15 year olds have sex they have broken the law.
If their parents decide that they will hand over contraception and give sound sex education they have broken the law and also committed child endangerment and can be subject to SS.

But it will never happen! Because it is not in the public interest. Just like punishing parents will not be in the child’s interest.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Interesting that many of us have assumed the OP is female, I just checked and it is not stated!

Starblaze Thu 25-Jun-20 11:44:05 I didn't need to read your link because I know the process can harm children. I dispute that it is always the GPs who cause that harm. There is no reason for anyone to talk to the children until the process is well advanced: mediation on a one to one basis, mediation between both parties, Cafcass report, application to apply for a CAO. None of this needs to be discussed with a young child. I cannot actually see why the rest of the process has to be discussed with a child but I know less about the later stages than about the earlier ones.

"I think the possible harm to children is potentially more serious than you are willing to accept". I wish you would accept that I do know that and I wish you would accept that parents can also be responsible for the harm too.

Whatever the reason the FCs apply that paragraph it seems sensible to assume they would penalise anyone who breaks a court order because otherwise word would get around that they are not worth the paper they are written on.

Nonnie I don't have time to go back through threads, I'm at work. I'm afraid you either have to quote what I said or just drop it.

We don't have to agree anyway, I don't mind.

I've clarified my comment to you Nonnie but I apologise that it was harsh. I didn't think you understand the process in relation to harm to children. You didn't read my link. I read yours though. I think the possible harm to children is potentially more serious than you are willing to accept.

Family courts are about children, while courts in general have certain powers, I can't realistically see the family courts using a prison sentence because it is harmful to children. It's included in the documentation I expect, as a scare tactic to increase the chances the court order is complied with.

Starblaze Thu 25-Jun-20 11:24:04 I couldn't disagree more. A responsible parent would never involve a young child.

I have been on Gransnet for a long time and have seen many discussions where people have, to their credit, apologised when they got something wrong or misunderstood. It says a lot about comments on this thread that I have been several times accused of not knowing about the UK legal system and when I offered proof I had no apology.

One of the main attackers (posts deleted) has not even acknowledged that proof, another has acknowledged it but not apologised. I do have to wonder about the motivation behind that lack of apology.

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 20:17:25 presumably you are on those threads or you wouldn't know!

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 20:23:37 you are probably right and as with so many comments it works both ways.

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 20:26:15 so will I.

bibi the race to the bottom happened a long time back!

Bibbity Thu 25-Jun-20 11:06:22. I agree courts get it wrong sometimes in all sorts of cases. Social Services also get things wrong but is there a better process?

Please send me a link to verify that barrister's advice. Thanks

I am not sure we know whether courts will penalise people who break court orders but it seems odd that they would write about penalties in the orders if they were not going to enforce them. Surely there would be no point in having an order if no one had to abide by it?

I answered that Nonnie, if there was any harm from the cut off it already happened before a months long wait until the grandparent goes to court and then the months while it is in court. The parents would support them past it.

Its too much of a leap to assume a child is harmed just by not having a grandparent in their lives.

So the court process adds more harm regardless.

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 18:57:31 you've called it me again! Unbelievable!

Smile "I get the distinct impression that this is less to do with whether or not GP's should be able to go to court in some cases and more to do with an uncontrollable urge some EAC have to pin the label of abusive on all EP's" I agree, there is no logic to it otherwise.

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 19:04:05 I agree that this can damage children. You have to also agree that cutting .
children off from a loving relationship can also damage them. A parent going to court can minimise the damage of going to court by not discussing it with the children unless they are old enough to speak to Cafcass themselves without parental interference.

"This is exactly why in the majority of cases courts won't even entertain this idea and its also why (because I have read a lot of interesting old threads I was recommended recently) the majority of grandparents that do manage to go to court, fail." Please send verification of this paragraph. Thanks

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 19:05:27I hope that is true. Presumably Cafcass will have recommended that. It confirms that gps who do go though all the earlier stages and get to court are assumed not to have been abusers in the first instance.

"So why is anyone still arguing that grandparents should go to court for access, just because OP did (not knowing the long term implications in that case).

Doesn't matter who is at fault, doesn't matter who is to blame for the relationship breakdown, we are talking about inocent children." simply because they are 'innocent children'

MoD "The determination and relishing of parents being sent to prison" please show me where you got that from. I haven't seen it on this thread.

"Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 19:12:01" I think you said we should name the poster on each occasion?

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 19:19:55 why are you 'frightened' by the truth about the law? What scares you about it?

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 19:25:49 so now a huge number of us are insulted. Has it never occurred to you that so many of the things you say can equally be said of parents? Sorry to shout but THE LAW IS THE LAW" No one is above the law.

Star "Its clearly just people having problems with people who are not nice people." I couldn't agree more.

Chewbacca Wed 24-Jun-20 19:57:32
and on to the next page!

Courts have gotten it wrong many many times. Mothers have been forced to hand over their children to men who have them murdered them.
If (and it would never happen) my MIL got a CAO for my children I can guarantee they would never go once.

A court will not fine our imprison a parent for failing to comply with a GPR case. I’ve checked with a barrister.
They can. But they won’t

The key reason is because it will not be beneficial to the child in any way. It will in fact potentially endanger them.
It’s taking money away from the child and it’s taking the child’s primary carer away from them. They will not do it.

They don’t punish actual parents for breaking CAO in the UK! I know a father who has spent tens of thousands on trying to enforce the orders. Slap on the wrist and on with your day. Nothing happens.

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 17:38:52 thank you for 'accepting' that. It would have been so easy for you to check it before telling me I didn't know what I was talking about.

Side note: Any parent breaking a CAO is not looking after their child's well being. Any parent behaving so badly the court gives them a custodial sentence will have done damage to their child/children.

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 18:39:45 really? Your words sound like something from a school playground. GNHQ must agree with Smile as they have deleted the abusive post. Even you agree "The language we use is important

It’s especially important when attempting to convey the depravity of some of the posters on here, yes."

I would be interested to see "who is gleeful at the prospect of a parent being sent to prison". please provide a link to the person who said that? I think that is another false statement.

"As if some grandparents on here aren’t entitled enough!" some gps and some parents too.

"Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 18:50:11" because its true. Why are you 'determined' to say it is not true?

Chewbacca Wed 24-Jun-20 18:53:53 well summarised.

Motherofdragons Wed 24-Jun-20 18:57:31 anyone who interprets a post like that has a really odd way of thinking.

On to the next page

Welcome to Granset if you're new Oswin.

My thoughts on it are that there are a very few estranged parents who do not like estranged children being here if we are saying things that they think make them look bad.

That's just paranoia and perception though, talking about our abuse should never be a reflection on them. Unless they actually did things we term as abuse.. Which, well, we can't help.

I think they work together to drive us away upset or make us so angry that we say something stupid and get banned. I've seen it happen or seen evidence of it happening several times now.

This is done by constantly pulling us up,reversing our statements, twisting what we say, invalidating our abuse, telling us our abuse makes us too biased to have an opinion on topics or actually even making a joke out of our abuse.

Its a real shame.

I'm not going to leave though and I am not going to say anything to get me banned. So I'm just going to keep sticking up for myself and other estranged children I see it happening too.

This only seems to happen on estrangement and the dreaded politics discussions for the most part. Loving other areas of gransnet.

The thread is certainly deteriorating BibiSarah which is a shame as there have been some useful, informative and sensible posts.

It will either fade away because it's getting too ridiculous or end up being deleted by GNHQ which means that the sensible contributions will be deleted along with it.

This is a really bloody horrible dig to make at a poster. Awful

The thread is an unfortunate example of a race to the bottom.

Chewbacca

^I survived emotional and sexual abuse, a bit of physical abuse too when I was very young^ (hospitalised even).

Yes.... I think you might have mentioned it a time or two.....

This is a really bloody horrible dig to make at a poster. Awful.