Hope For Estranged Grandparents

I seem to have done a pretty good job of shutting down this thread to most people! Facts have a tendency to do that, don't they?

I said I wasn’t going to engage you any further, but nor am I comfortable with you posting irrelevant information on this thread and it going unchallenged.

The link you have pasted is to nothing but a legal firm’s internal template providing guidance for the completion of an application for submission to the court in cases of seperation to address residency and contact for the children of the relationship/marriage. The document is clearly marked “for staff use only”.

The website the form is found on is for divorcing parents and has nothing to do with grandparent’s rights. The site owner clearly says that the site is no longer active (from June 2019) and that the guides are out of date and not helpful to anyone.

What you refer to at Section B5 is not penalties for failure to adhere to the court order, it is optional clauses and standard wording found in many legal documents, which is to be used, as appropriate.

If you want to know the penalties for failure to adhere to a court order, then you require to look at the appropriate case law.

This is not legislation, case law or facts, this is one firm’s guidance notes for completing a certain type of application which have clearly been made available to help parents submit forms to the court themselves in cases of separation/divorce (following the withdrawal of legal aid in the U.K.).

And before you tell me “no, no, no, you’re wrong, it’s FACTS”, anyone can look at the link you’ve posted and see for themselves.

I don’t know what you are trying to prove Nonnie, but you are just being incredibly unhelpful.

Yes facts can do that Nonnie as can one or two posters who disagree with others respectfully, producing well composed and balanced arguments.

It's a shame but sometimes only one point of view is 'allowed'.

I seem to have done a pretty good job of shutting down this thread to most people! Facts have a tendency to do that, don't they?

Starblaze Wed 24-Jun-20 11:23:13 I have not 'educated' myself I knew this all along. I have been saying it throughout this thread and been constantly told I didn't know it. I even tried to save you all having to go through it by typing out the particular point I wanted to share but someone got that deleted!

No, not read that particular article because I was already very aware that children can be harmed by the process as well as being harmed by being denied access to people they love.

Nonnie I said you didn't understand the process and how it affects children.

Good for you for now educating yourself on the process and reading up about it.

Did you read the article about the possible harm to children which I have suggested several times now?

Star Its about child arrangement orders which is what it is called in the UK and what the OP was talking about. You might find it interesting and also, perhaps, agree that I do know about the UK law on this subject. Thanks

Thank you for (in a round about way) answering that question Smileless I will fire up the laptop so I can actually read it later.

Thanks for referring specifically to B5 on page 3 Nonnie.

"The order includes a child arrangements order (the part of the order setting out living arrangements of a child and about time to be spent or contact with another person).

As "another person" would include GP's I can see why this link is relevant to GP's having contact with their GC.

That's fine Nonnie but if this isn't about grandparents visitation with children, it's just not relevant and I won't read it.

I don't think UK law uses the word visitation. Sorry you will have to read through it all to find the bit I posted about what happens if you don't obey the order but when I wrote that out it was deleted so if anyone wants to know they will have to plough through. However it is B5 on page 3. There is other stuff people could check to see the process though

Pretty sure it's now. Residence and contact rather than custody and visitation.

Nonnie I will read that later as its too small for my phone but before I do, does this document relate to grandparent visitation specifically does it refer to parental custody, visitation and special guardianship?

Dont think the word is custody anymore either is it? Mind has gone blank

Forgot the link! www.thecustodyminefield.com/flapp/download/CAP_Master_Orders-1.pdf

Starblaze Tue 23-Jun-20 13:36:29 It is not possible to do that as they are all confidential but it is a standard paragraph in CAOs

My post was deleted because HQ said it is unverified but that is a mistake. Here is a link which 'verifies' it and also gives a lot of information on the process.

I don't think we are reading the same things Nonnie so I'm struggling to keep up with you. It will probably help to post the link to the quoted text so it can be read in context and the source known.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Motherofdragons Tue 23-Jun-20 11:35:02 That is an exact quote! You did say it and you have quoted it again!

You have a choice about engaging. I have often noticed that people who recognise their argument doesn't stand up and that their ignorance of a subject becomes clear is the reason they stop 'engaging'. I won't comment on your last sentence or I will be accused again!

Star I am pretty sure it hasn't been covered, could it be it was on another thread? What are your thoughts? I have responded on the fact that both parents are not always in the child's life.

I agree that "anyone who may be in this situation" should read all about this situation, both parents and GPs. They can read and decide for themselves which posts are unbiased and which are biased, which are based on their own experience and which are knowledgeable observations.

Still waiting for someone to tell me which part of the law I don't understand and for someone to comment on my post about different cultures.

"It’s about winning" NO, NO & NO! I'm sorry you see it like that, it seems to be a competition in your eyes. It should be about the children!

That’s not what I said Nonnie. That’s not what I said at all. Your reading comprehension skills either leave a lot to be desired, or you are deliberately twisting my words. I said:

It is slipping into the territory of who is right and who is wrong. And when we start getting into that, the best interest of the grandchildren are never at the forefront of anyone’s mind. It’s about winning.

I’m not going to engage you on this thread any further. Your ignorance is massively unhelpful for anyone who may be in this situation and reading the thread and I don’t want to encourage you any further. This says it all really:

Of course the OP hasn't given details, they would be in contempt of court if they did! Obviously

I actually feel foolish for entertaining you thus far.

Nonnie ref. your post today 10.24 yes that's right, mediation can be given separately in the first instance. I think you raise an interesting point as to why parents, knowing that the GP's would not be present, would decline that opportunity if they had nothing to hide.

Nonnie I had assumed we were all in agreement and remember it mentioned a few times, I don't have time to read back through so I could be wrong. I have answered you in the discussion with my thoughts on it. I I'm sure others will be along soon.

Nonnie we are all different. Sometimes offering someone continuous sympathy on a subject is a bit like poking them with a sharp stick or letting their bad experience define them in your head as a person.

I'm just me, generally a nice person, I have a vast amount more to me than "abuse victim" and it doesn't define me.

Thanks for understanding

Star I think both sides would do well to have the information. I think that is what the OP was attempting to do.

Sorry, didn't realise too much sympathy was an issue. Won't do it again.

Starblaze Tue 23-Jun-20 10:32:04 I can't see that and I think I've read all the comments. Please tell me times and dates of when "We were all in agreement". Thanks

Nonnie I really am happy and able to move past it, I'm just answering you. I don't really need any more sympathy as I have moved past it and getting constant sympathy makes me feel as if I should still feel sorry for myself. Acknowledgement is fine but it doesn't need saying more than once if that makes sense to you.

I don't like the implication that my abuse colours my thinking now because it diminishes the hard work I did to move past it.

You have had bad experiences that you try not to let cloud your view, I would just like the same chances.

I have never ever said and never would that I think all grandparents deserve to be cut off. I have simply said over and over that the process itself can harm children and that the process does not always spot abusive grandparents.

Any legal website I have visited or official estrangement site like Stand Alone will advise against taking the court route due to those factors.

That's not arguing against good grandparents in any way. They just need to know this information.

We were all in agreement that people losing access to grandchildren through divorce or bereavement was vastly different to direct relationship breakdowns between family members. Or at least, no one had disputed it. I answered you anyway Nonnie. So having contributed on the discussion you wanted about it, what do you actually think of my contribution?

I realised I had gone over old ground so asked for my earlier post to be deleted. All this is confusing enough without me adding to it.

Starblaze Tue 23-Jun-20 10:02:40 Yes, passive aggressive to make allusions to what someone has said without quoting.

I think it would be helpful if we took the personal element out of this thread. I find it hard when I have sympathy for a poster and want to show that but, at the same time, can see they have a different view to me. I try to separate it out but can see that people interpret things according to their own agenda.

Bad things happen to people, they have happened to me at various times, but I try not to let that cloud my view of everyone else. I think we can all agree that abuse from anyone should not be tolerated but why can't we agree that some GPs have done nothing wrong and that their GC love and miss them? Not all parents are perfect either.