Hope For Estranged Grandparents

What some seem to forget is that there are many many 'laws' still "on the books" so to speak, that have listed potential punishments for them. Some of those 'laws' are ridiculous by today's standards.

Have law-makers gone through these books and repealed these 'silly laws' or potential consequences? Nope. They are still there but are simply relegated to "archaic status" and ignored.

For example, in New York state, adultery is still illegal. Now I am sure affairs happen in that state but has anyone ever heard of someone being dragged to court for that offense, let alone convicted and penalized?

So it IS scaremongering to say that someone in NY State could face a legal consequence for adultery much like saying that AC might go to jail for failing to comply with a GP access court order...

After 8 December 2008
The punishments available to the Court will largely depend on the nature and frequency of the breaches. Ultimately the Court has the power to order unpaid work (between 40 and 200 hours), financial compensation to the other party, a fine, transfer of a child's residence to the other parent and in the most serious cases, the imprisonment of the uncooperative party.

It is very rare for the offending party to be committed to prison as they are often the child's primary carer and it will clearly have a negative effect on the child.

Therefore, this demonstrates a) it is not an antiquated law but one that was enshrined in law as recently as 2008. b) It confirms that whilst it is very rare it is impossible, for an offender to be committed to prison.

Why are you so adamant that, if a parent was a repeated and determined offender, that an example would not/could not be made of them by sending them to jail? Why are you trying to rewrite, what you perceive to be, flaws in legal jurisdiction just because you don't agree with them? Is it because this law makes you feel vulnerable?

For what it's worth, I personally think that any GP who would extend their legal pursuit against their EAC until they risk sending them to prison and damaging their grandchildren still further is as "mentally unstable" as some of the posters on this thread have accused others of being.

Whilst it is very rare it is NOTimpossible.

Chewbacca -- A law does not have to be chronologically 'old' for the consequences to be deemed questionable to the 'crime'. Law makers have many things "on the books" but that doesn't mean that the case law has ever been employed.

When a law has not had a "legal precedent" set -- A case using the law/statute put before an actual court -- then the law essentially has 'no teeth'.

So the question becomes, has a "legal precedent" been 'set'? Has someone been jailed for non-compliance of that law?

I honestly don't know if anyone has been jailed for non compliance of an order HolyHannah That would 've research you'd have to conduct yourself if you felt so inclined. But in any event, the legal scaffolding is in place; all it needs is a determined enough grandparent and/or a sympathetic judge who is willing to set the precedent on their behalf. It's just a matter of time as to which occurs first, I would imagine.

Pointing out what is possible as the law currently stands is not scaremongering

Scaremongering is defined as the spreading of frightening or ominous reports or rumours.

It hasn’t happened. It is unlikely to ever happen. It is not in the child’s best interests nor is it a precedent the courts would ever set. So, until it actually happens, saying that a parent will be sent to prison for not complying with the court order is simply a rumour. So, it is scaremongering.

I mean given the hurdles involved in even getting a case into court, never mind actually being granted a court order, why the determination to “prove” that a parent can be sent to prison for not complying with the order? I mean, can you even obtain permission to apply for a contact order in the first place?

So I can’t work out whether it is being thrown around on this thread to frighten parents or to empower grandparents. If it’s the former, it is scaremongering, if it is the latter, it is disgusting.

Do I think a parent should go to prison for this particular offence? No I don't

Thanks for sharing your view. Although, I don’t think anyone would be brave enough to admit it if they did.

Scaremongering is defined as the spreading of frightening or ominous reports or rumours.

Yes, that's definitely the Oxford English dictionary definition of the word but I can't see how reporting the actual existence of a legal framework could be described as "scaremongering". Before an act becomes enshrined in law, it goes through many stages of review panels, both civilly, politically and legally and this particular law must have been ratified by all if those panels.

Any law will only "scaremonger" those who are afraid that they will lose out by it being invoked.

Honestly if this conversation wasn't so ridiculous it would be amusing.

It doesn't matter if a legal precedent has been set. As the law currently stands, and as Chewbacca has posted this particular law came into effect after December 2008, this is the law.

If a judge decided to give a term of imprisonment to a P who refused to give a GP contact with their GC, against the court's ruling, the P's legal representative could then argue that there is no precedent for doing so, which would of course be correct if no P has ever been imprisoned for this.

The judge may or may not change his/her decision based on that argument and decide not to set a precedent in that case.
That does not alter the fact that, as the law currently stands, a P could be imprisoned for such an offence.

Any law will only "scaremonger" those who are afraid that they will lose out by it being invoked

Children. That is who will lose out in this instance.

Honestly if this conversation wasn't so ridiculous it would be amusing

Would it be? Amusing?

It is a disturbing conversation to be having, quite frankly. Especially by grandparents who have been cut off from their grandchildren.

Stating what is law may be frightening, and could be classed as an ominous report though I disagree with that in this discussion, but it is not a rumour Motherofdragons.

You may be right that it is not a precedent a court would ever set but that's not the point is it. The point is that it is a precedent that could be set because the law has created that possibility and as I've previously posted, unless the law is changed no one can ever say that a P would not be given a custodial sentence for this particular offence.

I honestly don't know how else to explain it, but if some posters are unable or unwilling to accept that this is the law, there's nothing else to be said is there.

It is a disturbing conversation I agree Motherofdragons and what makes it so is the fact that regardless of how many times it is stated, the message isn't getting through.

P's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their children's GP's are awarded contact via a court order and they refuse to comply they could be looking at a custodial sentence.

GP's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their AC refuse to comply with their contact court order, and they go back to court, that however unlikely, their AC could face a custodial sentence.

If both sides are aware of all the possible outcomes it may make them realise that co-operation is the best way forward and that coming to a mutual agreement is better than going to court.

It is a disturbing conversation I agree Motherofdragons and what makes it so is the fact that regardless of how many times it is stated, the message isn't getting through

So, you think it is more disturbing that some posters are choosing to maintain their position based on their own experience as opposed to estranged grandparents discussing the fact that they can send their child to prison for not co-operating with them? You have a strange view of the word disturbing.

P's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their children's GP's are awarded contact via a court order and they refuse to comply they could be looking at a custodial sentence

And as any lawyer would tell their client, yes, this could happen, but it has never happened and it is extremely unlikely to.

GP's need to be aware that however unlikely, if their AC refuse to comply with their contact court order, and they go back to court, that however unlikely, their AC could face a custodial sentence

And as any lawyer would tell their client, yes, this could happen, but it has never happened and it is extremely unlikely to.

If both sides are aware of all the possible outcomes it may make them realise that co-operation is the best way forward and that coming to a mutual agreement is better than going to court

So parents should be forced, using the threat of prison, to co-operate with a person who has no rights to their child?

And whilst of course it is helpful to be aware of all possibile outcomes, the determining factor is the probability of an outcome.

You are all good at citing law in theory. Not so good at understanding law in practice.

Children. That is who will lose out in this instance.

Yes motherofdragons absolutely they will, there's no argument about that. But the point of this thread is that the OP stated that she knew that such a law existed and could be enforced and there is irrefutable evidence to support that claim. Much as you, and others, deplore this law, it remains a truism that it is only a matter of time before an estranged grandparent decides that they have nothing left to lose and proceeds to court. And if they have excellent legal representation and a sympathetic judge, they could very will win their case.

It's at that point that the floodgates will open and there will be litigious grandparents queuing up to press their cases too. This isn't scaremongering. The law is set, ready and waiting for that first case to be made.

Not so good at understanding law in practice

You have no idea how wide of the mark that comment is motherofdragons, absolutely no idea at all.

You have no idea how wide of the mark that comment is motherofdragons, absolutely no idea at all

You have no idea how much I actually couldn’t give a f**k

You could be a 40 year old man living in your mother’s basement for all anyone knows. Jog on with that crap.

But the point of this thread is that the OP stated that she knew that such a law existed and could be enforced and there is irrefutable evidence to support that claim

No, that’s not the point of the thread, because it was never mentioned by the OP.

Much as you, and others, deplore this law, it remains a truism that it is only a matter of time before an estranged grandparent decides that they have nothing left to lose and proceeds to court. And if they have excellent legal representation and a sympathetic judge, they could very will win their case

It’s definitely not the law that I deplore!

It's at that point that the floodgates will open and there will be litigious grandparents queuing up to press their cases too. This isn't scaremongering. The law is set, ready and waiting for that first case to be made

It hasn’t happened yet though, has it? So I think I will worry about that when it does. Until then, it’s scaremongering.

Ooops! The light has just dawned! Here's a bucket of sand for you to keep burying your head in; it won't make the truth go away but you'll be able to pretend it doesn't exist with this.

The light has just dawned

Huh?

Won’t make what truth go away? A parent isn’t going to get sent to prison for not following a court order granted in favour of a grandparent. I’ll happily eat your bucket of sand if it ever happens though! Until then, I’ll not lose any sleep over it, that’s for sure.

Well if you'll not lose any sleep over it Motherofdragons why are you getting so uptight and accusing those of us who are simply stating what the law is and what could happen within that law of scaremongering?

Nice bucket and spade Chewbacca

That's absolutely fine motherofdragons, you have total liberty to believe anything you like, no matter how foolish and misguided it is. But I suspect that you will lose sleep because it's the very thought that what I've told you just might be right that's causing you to believe I'm scaremongering. And it's fear that makes you angry. I hope your fears are groundless.

Well if you'll not lose any sleep over it Motherofdragons why are you getting so uptight and accusing those of us who are simply stating what the law is and what could happen within that law of scaremongering?

I want to reassure any parents reading that it is indeed scaremongering and that it is never going to happen.

It’s a fantastic bucket and spade, isn’t it Smileless. Perhaps you could use the spade to dig yourself out of that hole that you got yourself into on the Perception thread.

That's absolutely fine motherofdragons, you have total liberty to believe anything you like, no matter how foolish and misguided it is. But I suspect that you will lose sleep because it's the very thought that what I've told you just might be right that's causing you to believe I'm scaremongering. And it's fear that makes you angry

Thank you very much for allowing me to believe what I like. That is very considerate of you.

Do you actually think I’m going to lose sleep over your post? You need to check your ego.

I hope your fears are groundless

I hope you’re being a good boy for your mummy.

What hole would that be then Motherofdragons? Perhaps you'd like to put your big girl pants on and be more explicit?

MotherofDragons you are pationately defending children and that is right and just. They are arguing because thats just the sort of people they are and they don't care how bad they look because they are backing each other up and egging each other on, and enjoying it.

You and I know that no judge has done this. Doesn't matter if it's possible. No judge has sent a parent to prison, effectively for cutting of a grandparent.

Given the growth in recognition of abusive behaviours, the vastness of education available on the Internet and all the new laws around emotional abuse, this will only go the other way, not towards imprisoning adult children with rubbish parents.

We had no proof, newer generations have recording devices at their finger tips, information in seconds, education in schools from organisations on what to do when they are unhappy, organisations all connected with staff trained on safeguarding children.

Soon it will be emotionally abusive parents going to prison. They won't ever get near their grandchildren.

People like us will never stop the fight to prevent harm to children and we are already winning.

We beat ours right!

❤️