Hope For Estranged Grandparents

Not all the comments saying it were deleted so I am OK to reference those.

I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware when a post is deleted, any subsequent posts that are in direct reference to the deleted post may be deleted too.

Maybe as you've asked her on more than one occasion to address the issue with you, and she's not done so, that's because she doesn't want too.

I can see that for you this doesn't resolve the matter but it's up to you whether or not you want to move past it.

I'm not surprised it was deleted. It's up to Nonnie if she would like to address it with me though. How else do these things become resolved and bad feeling moved past?

I don't know which of Nonnie's posts you're referring too Starblaze but if it's the one she posted this morning at 10.45 GNHQ have deleted it, so perhaps we should leave it at that.

I think you're right Granniesunite that "Vengeance is a game to some personalities" even when there's nothing to be vengeful about.

If Nonnie was sympathising with me MissA she can tell me so herself, apologise for continuing to use a word to describe me that I had already told her twice I found hurtful and agree she will not use it again.

Madgran Thank you so much for saying that, it really meant a lot to me

You can be damaged and strong, but either way, Nonnie was sympathising with you, not trying to do anything else.

It’s time now to get the courts involved in such cases and I know in parts of the uk that is exactly what is happening.

Way to go yet though.

I really believe that it’s child abuse to alienate a child from a loving parent, or grandparent.

But in some families it is normal and continues for generations.

Vengeance is a game to some personalities.

Nonnie fair point, I apologise for saying it like that but I do suggest you read the article I posted.

Nonnie you have also not addressed my other question. Why do you think it is acceptable to call me damaged?

There is a big difference between saying that certain behaviours cause others damage or some situations may cause damage and telling someone to their face that you think they are damaged. In that context it becomes insulting and hurtful. Especially to a victim of sexual abuse who has worked extremely hard for more than 3 decades to undo any issues caused by it.

Whether or not you agree it is hurtful and insulting, I find it hurtful and insulting and I made that clear to you, yet you continued to repeat it.

In life I have left behind friends oor ex boyfriends and especially my mother for all looking at me as "damaged" by abuse. It certainly did not damage my intelligence or my ability to educate myself on the issues faced by children or I would not have passed any of my coursework in which I excelled.

My abuse, my understanding and the resulting empathy makes me very well equppiex to safeguard children.

That makes me strong, not damaged.

I agree Granniesunite and Pantglas and it's the EGP's who do decide to take the legal route that are so heavily criticised; unbelievable.

Your last paragraph is chilling to read Motherofdragons and explains why most EGPs don’t go down the legal route as they’re scared of what the parents might do if the courts go against them.

So sad to read such unreasonable thinking.

Motherofdragons Fri 19-Jun-20 13:45:40 of course the papers are about the children but they won't get upset about them unless someone tells them. Please read what I say in context rather than picking out little bits

What kind of logic is that? So, whoever tells the children about the court action is at fault for upsetting them, not whoever raised it? Okay!

No I haven't told anyone what to do and it is not up to you to tell me what to do! I have consistently said that the courts know best and that adults should not do things to upset the children. Do you disagree with that?

Yes, of course I disagree. The courts absolutely do not know best! And the courts know this. This is why they are hesitant to get involved in cases such as these. And that is why the courts will defer to decisions made by the parents as the parents will be assumed by the courts to be acting in the best interests of the child, regardless of whether another party (without parental responsibility) agrees or not.

Motherofdragons Fri 19-Jun-20 14:18:4 No, it is not the 'parent's decision' it is the court's decision as the OP stated. You misunderstand the purpose of the court, it is there to do what is best for the child/children when the adults cannot sort it out between them

Of course it is the parent’s decision! Parents can withhold contact from grandparents or any other individual who is not the other parent, and there is very little that can be done about it. You can try and use the courts to override the parent’s decisions, but it is rare for the courts to actually do this

It could be the GPs are about 'power and control' or it could equally be about the parents 'power and control'. That is why we need the courts because at least one of the adults is not being reasonable

The parents don’t need to be reasonable. They are the parents and can be as unreasonable as they like. It is still their decision who their children have a relationship with. I know that is difficult for many of you to accept, but it is the reality of the situation nonetheless.

No, not to any minor and certainly not to a 3 year old Nonnie; shocking behaviour.

Starblaze Fri 19-Jun-20 13:36:45 You are so wrong. Please, instead of saying I don't understand, tell me what you suggest I have got wrong.

Motherofdragons Fri 19-Jun-20 13:45:40 of course the papers are about the children but they won't get upset about them unless someone tells them. Please read what I say in context rather than picking out little bits.

No I haven't told anyone what to do and it is not up to you to tell me what to do! I have consistently said that the courts know best and that adults should not do things to upset the children. Do you disagree with that?

MissAdventure Fri 19-Jun-20 14:05:31 refreshing to read.

Motherofdragons Fri 19-Jun-20 14:18:4 No, it is not the 'parent's decision' it is the court's decision as the OP stated. You misunderstand the purpose of the court, it is there to do what is best for the child/children when the adults cannot sort it out between them.

It could be the GPs are about 'power and control' or it could equally be about the parents 'power and control'. That is why we need the courts because at least one of the adults is not being reasonable.

rosecarmel it is not my judgement it is the court's, I simply state the facts. Of course it may well be different where you live, I can only comment about the UK. We are culturally different to some countries.

Smileless2012 Fri 19-Jun-20 14:45:56 good balanced post. It must be very hard for you to come on here and say what needs to be said when you know you cannot see your gc. I believe the courts can go further than you suggest at a point when the gc have regained the relationship lost and when they want to visit the gc but that is a later step after a long separation.

Starblaze Fri 19-Jun-20 15:03:23 I agree that all sorts of people can be abusive and one form of abuse is to deny a child a loving grandparent. Just imagine, say, a 6 year old who loves their GP suddenly not seeing them at all. Will they think they are not loved? Will they blame themselves? Is that not abuse?

I agree that some posters are not listening, why can't some see that involving a child in a dispute between adults is wrong? Why can't they see that depriving a child of a loving relationship with part of their family is wrong?

It is 'logical' for adults to put the children first and if the only way to do that is through the courts then that is 'logical'. Of course if the parents are prepared to go through mediation the courts can often be avoided but if a parent refuses the court might well think they have something to hide.

I would appreciate it if you would enlighten us on which area of child protection you have gained your experience in, it would help if we understood where you are coming from. In my case it is mainly common sense and knowledge of what happened to a couple of friends. I claim no knowledge of child protection but I do know something of how Cafcass and the Family Courts work.

rosecarmel Fri 19-Jun-20 15:18:42 I have read your link because I have no knowledge of what happens outside the UK and wouldn't have an opinion on that. However in the UK the application is made to the court and not to the parent.

Bibbity Fri 19-Jun-20 13:59:53 good to hear, unfortunately I know of a parent who did just that and the child told the GP. This child was 3, does anyone think that is appropriate?

I'm sure they have rosecarmel as have many GP's. As you say it's sad and manipulative on both sides isn't it.

MissA that would be a shame.

Yes, I understand that Starblaze and I know you've posted about that before. More 'subtle' forms of abuse, for want of a better way of putting it, can take years to be seen for what they were and are.

From what you say, it was not until you saw your mother through your adult children's eyes so to speak, that you saw her treatment of you for the abuse it was.

Abuse in any form, for how ever long it is endured is a terrible thing to have to come to terms with; I know.

In the context of this thread, as I posted earlier, the OP gave us an example of how the court recognised that the parent was motivated not out of concern for the OP's GC, but by their own agenda, whatever that may have been.

Abuse was not an issue in the OP's particular case and isn't in so many others. I feel very strongly that we have to be mindful when discussing this topic of not inadvertently portraying all EP's are 'bad' which is why they've been estranged and all EGP's as 'bad' which is why they've been denied their GC and again as 'bad' if they go to court and are un successful or 'bad' for winning their case.

The onus to put the welfare of the children first is on all adults involved. GP's are no worse for going through the legal process to regain contact with their GC, then the children's parents for refusing that contact in the first place.

Smileless, so many young couples have lived to regret accepting help and permitting interaction-

Too many to not be considered a widespread issue- It's as though these couples owe their souls to the company store that only accepts visitation as paymemt-

It's manipulative, it's sad- But it's what grandparenting has become for many-

It was said that growing up with abusive parents would be damaging, which is what estranged children on here and elsewhere say, frequently.

Let's not turn it into a "grandparents on here bully estranged childen".

Anyone else who would like to weigh on whether it's OK to call anyone, especially sexual abuse surivors "damaged" please do so

I think it is not a suitable word to use in this context on a public forum Starblaze towards anyone.

Having said that, within the context of recognising the impact of abuse, "damaged* is a recognised description in terms of abuse experiences "damaging aspects of a child's development" "causing psychological damage". But that is for "experts" working with those children and the adults that they become, and between those individuals. It is not a judgement or even an assumption to be made on a public forum, even if meant as acknowledgement.

That is not to say that those "damaged" areas cannot be healed ...and you have described eloquently many times the difficult processes that you have been through to address the impact of your experiences as a child, and the difficult decisions that you have taken to support that.

I can only speak for myself on that one Smileless but I didn't understand my mum was abusive because I thought the problem was me, that I wasn't good enough. That's what this kind of abuse does to you. It's like grooming but emotionally it's called gaslighting. Why would I think my children would be badly treated if I deserved it. They did not. It was only my AC saying they didn't not like, trust or feel comfortable around her and they did not want to see her that helped me make that last realisation, I went and got a lot of help and estranged. I knew she was hurting me and I didn't want to see her. I did not know she could or would hurt my children except for the things I was already aware of like her favouritism and her not taking much interest most of the time.

I don't forgive myself for exposing them to her but my children do thankfully.

A very good point rosecarmel so why is there so much talk of abuse? Surely parents with real concerns about their children's welfare wouldn't have enabled a relationship with GP's to become established in the first place.

I know it was posted earlier on this thread that some AC estrange their parents before having children, presumably to provide any children they do have with as much protection as possible.

As for "the children are being treated as collateral, and the parents, along with their generosity, as nothing" well that cuts both ways doesn't it.

What about the GP's I referred too in my post on the previous page, who having provided child care in some cases for a long time, are cut out? It is their role as GP's and child care providers, their generosity in giving so much time and a lot more besides that is treated as nothing. Children are collateral damage here too aren't they?

"Every single case is different and complex" exactly MissA.

We all know that parents can be abusive Starblaze whether or not we are estranged children.

Although the issue of abuse is most certainly an important one, I do think it's a shame that that appears to have become the main focus on this thread, when in so many cases it's simply GP's wanting to maintain the relationship they've established with their GC.

Smileless, a relationship that wouldn't have been established without being permitted to begin with- Which is why many adult children are now choosing not to- Because the children are being treated as collateral, and the parents, along with their generosity, as nothing-