Hope For Estranged Grandparents

Starblaze Mon 29-Jun-20 19:34:59 it is a legal right to family life which the child has. In the last few years I read that there is a 'presumption' that grandparents would see them. I think that was a fundamental change which means the courts need to be convinced there is a good reason why they should not. I think this thread has covered all those already.

I have previously asked for (but not got) opinions about whether a dual heritage child should be cut off from one half of its culture.

MamaBear20 Mon 29-Jun-20 20:17:44 I have never come across a case of the law stopping GPs from seeing the gc but in the UK these courts are private so we probably wouldn't see it, same as we have no idea of numbers going to court, failing to get to court or being penalised from breaking an order.

Starblaze Mon 29-Jun-20 21:08:58 do you think the law firms are publishing misinformation? I think it is more likely they are putting it in layman's language so people don't need to read through the laws. I think the Law Society would jump on them if they posted misinformation.

Iron in the UK a 'parenting order' would probably come under Child Arrangement Order but is not what this thread is about, this about spending time with the gcs.

Nonnie I'm not engaging with you further on this subject.

MamaBear20 Mon 29-Jun-20 19:12:47 all that has been explained earlier in this thread. Courts make an order and if the parent breaks it the court can impose penalties. These can be financial, community work, even in the worst cases, imprisonment.

MamaBear20 Mon 29-Jun-20 19:09:19 I don't understand why you would call any other relationship 3rd parent. Whichever relation, GP, Aunt, Cousin etc gets a court order they allows them contact with the child it does not let them decide schools, health, social behaviour or any of the other things a parent decides. The only difference would be if a court gave parental permission to a claimant because it considered the parent to be harmful to the child.

Starblaze Mon 29-Jun-20 17:55:52 please show me where you have been 'bullied'? I would be interested to see whether you are or are claiming to be. I won't wait to see it because I have asked many times on this thread for people to verify what they say about others and am still waiting.

Starblaze Mon 29-Jun-20 18:07:05 saying that you know the truth is easy but on here it would be sensible to prove it or your opinions about others reflect badly on you.

MamaBear20 Mon 29-Jun-20 18:55:53 yes very different in the UK. It is the children who have the 'rights' adults have 'responsibilities'. Children have a human right to see their families and if they adults don't agree they can go to the family courts and let them decide. As family courts are held in secret and it is illegal to show the court orders to anyone else it is impossible for us to know how many get to court, how many succeed and how many fail. Clearly the court decided in favour of the OP.

Smileless2012 Mon 29-Jun-20 17:41:47 yes, that is the problem when we read that 'it hasn't happened' it won't happen' etc.

Starblaze Mon 29-Jun-20 17:42:54 I have seen no apology, a clarification yes, almost admitting I was right. You said I didn't understand the law and, actually, I can't be bothered to go back and list all the other ways you put me down and all the things you claimed about me. You seem to think I would hurt children and agree to gps who would harm children having access to them. You have 'interpreted' my posts in the way you think, not what I actually think.

MamaBear20

Actually the law in my country/state does allow for anyone to sue for visitation. The law reads:

Under NSW law, grandparents do not have implicit rights to have a relationship with their grandchild. However, like any other person who has a vested interest in the child's well-being, they can apply for a parenting order to try and secure visitation rights.

So technically an aunt could sue. Where does it stop?

That's not what I asked for, I know what law firms write in the jargon. I want to know where it states that "children have a right to see extended family" in The children's act, 1989 or 2004, whichever it is. Its a lot to plough through and I can't find it there.

Extended Family Law/Duncan Lewis

"The family court recognises that it is usually in the best interests of a child to have contact with extended family members such as grand parents, aunts, uncles and cousins".

Which bit Smileless I'm interested in reading it. I've read bits here and there for past coursework but haven't come across that bit

Starblaze I believe you are correct that most cases where contact is granted is in the case of bereavement, divorce, and even incarceration. In these cases it’s usually the in law that blocks the grandparent’s access to the child. It’s a shame adults can’t work on a more respectful relationship with their inlaws. However I can’t see how it would benefit a child to maintain contact with a grandparent who their parent finds too intolerable to be around.

No worries MamaBear it must be complicated when laws vary from state to state as they do in the USA.

Smileless Thank you for clarifying the law. I find the laws for grandparents rights very confusing. In the USA the law varies from state to state. Where I live the law has very loose and confusing terminology, so it’s hard to say what the law even is. It’s left to the court to interpret. There have been cases in my state of grandparents successfully suing for rights to maintain their relationship with grandchildren against the parents wishes, as in the original post by Worthitall. Again, I don’t know why a grandparent has more of a chance to contact a child than an aunt, uncle, or cousin.

In the UK a child has the right to know their extended family, it is part of the Children Act. I don't know why you don't know this Starblaze as there are more than 32 pages discussing this issue.

The law in the UK MamaBear to my knowledge has only so far been called upon by GP's. The GP's need to ask leave, the permission of the court, to take their case to court. Only with the court's permission can they proceed to court.

This thread was started by a GP who successfully obtained a contact order to see her GC so successful cases may not be common, but they do exist.

A parent who breaks a contact order can be fined, given community service or a short period of imprisonment. In the case of a GP's contact order, a P has not been given a custodial sentence however, there is provision within the law for such a sentence to be given.

Mamabear, Hi, I don't know if it is a legal right of the child to know extended family, I've only come across it mentioned as a right in law firm websites. I have no idea if it is a legal right or if it is a moral right that the courts consider, if the grandparent can prove it in the child's best interests. I think overall it's more geared towards grandparents who lose contact because of divorce or bereavement. That might be changing, I hope not enough to allow abusive people who have been cut off any kin of visitation

You could wade through the many pages of this thread to find the answer to that, but who would want to?

Smileless, so if it is a law in the UK that a child has the right to maintain a relationship with relatives, how is that law enforced? In the USA there is a consequence for breaking laws. Is it the same in the UK? What is the consequence for parents for blocking those relationships, if it is indeed a legal right?

Nonnie I am in the USA so yes the laws are different, but it seems that a “Child Arrangement Order” is very similar to Grandparent Visitation Rights, so semantics.

The reason I say that it seems grandparents are being treated as 3rd parents is that no other relatives are given the rights to contact with another person’s child. I wonder why the grandparent relationship is set above an aunts relationship, for example.

No, it is a child's legal in right in the UK to know their extended family which includes all members. However, with few GP applications making it as far as court, it's unlikely I think that other family members would be successful.

The legal right belongs to the child and not to any extended family members.

Thank you for the welcome Smileless.

Your statements seem to contradict each other so can you please clarify? You wrote:
“With few cases reaching court, and even fewer being successful, the probability of aunts, uncles and cousins is even less likely to succeed.

All children have a legal right to know their extended family which includes the aforementioned“

So it seems that it is not a legal right for children to know their relatives, if few cases are successful. Perhaps you meant you believe the law should be changed to make it a legal right? Or rather than a legal right, you believe it is a moral responsibility of parents to maintain these relationships with relatives? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so I’d appreciate if you would tell me your thoughts on this. I’m in the USA, so the laws are different.

OK Smileless

"You have no power over of me at all"you come out with some nonsense *Starblaze"; always good for a laugh.

Smileless I owe you nothing at all. You have no power over me at all. That's the point.

Well it's not enough for me Starblaze. I have asked you a question; are you accusing me of being a bully and you've failed to answer it.

No doubt because I am not one and you'd be unable to substantiate any claim that I am. Maybe you should have put lol at the end of that, then you could claim you were only joking.

I remember saying to my mum once "you and I both know the truth".

I could have blown up the entire family with the truth, I chose not to because I pity her really. She needs that support system far more than I do. She and I, we both know the truth. That is enough for me.