Is 'No Contact' abuse?

It's the opposite word of genuine. I can't even spell it

Anyway, I do think to be classified as abusive people need to have more than a few abusive traits? From a diagnostic standpoint?

There is a difference between labelling /classifying someone as abusive per se as opposed to saying that a particular act is emotionally abusive

I haven't seen the "64 tools" you mention!

As you know "disingenuous" means:

"not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does"!!

I am not sure if that is abusive, probably depends on context.

For a long time, as you know, I thought that "disingenous" described deliberately asking a question or making a comment that presents another aspect without necessarily giving ones own opinion ...for the purpose of helping people to look at an issue from different perspectives! I was incorrect in thinking that is what it meant, but that behaviour would not be be classed as abusive.

I think no contact is about control, not all adult children are nice and neither are all grandparents. I do think if there isn’t abuse just a clash of personality it is not worth challenging, if your child cuts you off from much loved grandchildren I would let them get on with it, because parents have the control whilst children are young and it’s not fair to start a tug of war over it, one day children will know what their parents are and act according. If I thought the children were victims of abuse I would move heaven and earth to get justice for them.

Lack of explanation is a recognised tool in emotional abuse

I really don’t think this is true. I have never come across it before, nor do I think “actions not matching words” is an appropriate descriptor for it either.

As I said I think we have to agree to disagree

I think you are right.

Anyway, I do think to be classified as abusive people need to have more than a few abusive traits? From a diagnostic standpoint?

Yes, you are right Starblaze. It is a pattern of behaviour displayed over a period of time.

I burnt my back in the sun reading articles earlier Madgran even one that was like 64 emotional abuse tools or something, wasn't there.

Abusive people can probably turn pretty much anything into abuse though right? They can even say very nice or sympathetic things to you and the overall tone and context it is said in is clearly not as nice as it pretends. Disengenuous even.

Anyway, I do think to be classified as abusive people need to have more than a few abusive traits? From a diagnostic standpoint?

"I would view writing to me and acknowledging how much I love my grandchildren and therefore saying I won't be cut off from then...and then being cut off from them without explanation, written or otherwise, as emotionally abusive".

Thank you Madgran you seem to have been able to explain that fat better than I've been able too, and we were the ones who went through it!!!

Smileless -- I have never received such a letter but I know EAC who have written a letter (probably like one you got) to their parents before they went No Contact... It's odd that his letter happened right before he went No Contact as well.

Usually 'that letter' contains a list of issues that they have, why those "things" are problematic and probably even had suggestions for compromises that they would feel comfortable with.

It likely ended with something along the lines of, "We know we have our differences as adults and want to work them out. We know how much you love our grandson and would never take him away from you."

They probably thought, like many AC do, that they can separate in a healthy way, a relationship with you and a relationship between you and their child. When they realized they could not? That's when they went No Contact.

MoD Madgran, what is it that you consider abusive - is it the breaking of a “promise” or the changing of one’s mind without explanation?

This was what I put in an earlier post in response to another poster …

I DO NOT believe that estrangement is abusive per se. I DO believe that people should be able to make decisions about their own life.

However, I DO think that telling someone that you are going to estrange, in writing, that "we will never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him". and then doing that exact thing without saying why things have changed is at the very least cruel ….... to be honest, on common decency, a written explanation of the reasons why the first written statement no longer applied, would be common decency!!! Especially as the first written statement acknowledged how much the GPs loved their child!!

In a later post I said:

In the context of writing to someone and telling them they will not be cut off from their GC because of knowing how much that person loves their GC ...and then doing exactly that but without explanation ...that is as I said before at the very least cruel and in terms of emotional abuse I would say abusive. Lack of explanation is a recognised tool in emotional abuse. Again, I am aware that I do not know the exact chain of events, the whole story as perceived by all parties, but on the basis of what has been presented here that action in that specific context, is to me emotionally abusive behaviour.

In yet another post, in response to the comment

"If my children estranged me I wouldn't see it as abuse either"

I replied:

Nor would I per se. I would view writing to me and acknowledging how I much I love my grandchild and therefore saying I won't be cut off from them ...and then being cut off from them without explanation, written or otherwise, as emotionally abusive.

Lack of explanation is a recognised tool in emotional abuse.

As I said I think we have to agree to disagree.

No, we didn't find it weird at the time Starblaze but then again we had absolutely no idea what was to come.

You may have some idea HolyHannah but bear in mind, this was an email sent from a son only a few months before he estranged his parents.

From what you've posted of your own situation, I think I'm right in saying that you wont ever have received an email from your AC, son or daughter, just a few months before they estranged you.

Smileless -- I know the type of e-mail you are talking about and I know why you don't want to share, even generally, any of the other content.

Did you find it weird at the time Smileless?

No I wont give details of the email. I've said that it wasn't in answer to a question and was given freely. I will only add that it wasn't said due to anything we said, asked about or asked for.

Smileless -- It was in a long e-mail. What was said in the rest of the e-mail? Can you give some clarity as to the rest of the content?

It wasn't a random statement, it was in the context of a long email and it wasn't in answer to a question. It was, for the want of a better way of putting it 'freely given'.

Madgran, what is it that you consider abusive - is it the breaking of a “promise” or the changing of one’s mind without explanation?

Smileless when he said that, was it just a random statement or an answer to a question, or?

"actions not matching words" certainly applied in our case. The written words "we'll never stop you seeing ..... because we know how much you love him" then estranging us, estranging our GC from us, and never letting us see him again.

Motherofdragons Thanks for replying so fully. I think we will have to agree to disagree but I appreciate the discussion.

Are you confusing explanation with accountability Madgran?

No!

I have no idea why you think my comment about "lack of explanation" is connected to not commenting to Smileless on the specifics of EPs not hearing explanations!!

The reason I made the connection is because I don’t know what non-explanation as a recognised tool of emotional abuse in the context of discussing no contact is, and the only way I could see that conversation going was in the direction of, “well, you must have been given an explanation, so you do know/you’re choosing not to listen”.

"lack of explanation" ..in the type of situations I was referring to it is not the same as silent treatment; again I don't think I gave enough explanation

Again, as I don’t know what non-explanation as a recognised tool of emotional abuse in the context of discussing no contact is, the best I could come up with using “non-explanation”, stopping speaking to an individual and “recognised tool of emotion abuse” is the silent treatment. To be clear, I didn’t think it was the silent treatment, it was just the best I could come up with to try and understand.

So I am referring to specifically doing something that is the opposite of what one has said one will do, without explanation. The Mental Health Foundation refers to it as "actions not matching words" which is a clearer description I think

That has definitely cleared up any confusion. However, I don’t think it is the same as “actions not matching words”. I think that is more being in an active relationship and your partner telling you they love you but not acting in a loving way. I am happy to be corrected, though.

In the scenario you are referring to, I honestly see it as an individual who is upset and not thinking clearly giving reassurances in the moment. It happens often. Once that person has calmed down and thought things through with a clearer head, it is not unusual for them to change their mind. No one should be beholden to reassurances they have made whilst upset/attempting to calm an upset individual. Do I think “lack of explanation as to why a given promise had changed” is abusive? No, I don’t. People are entitled to change their minds without having to provide an explanation for it. Nor is a promise made binding. I appreciate that it is hurtful, yes, but I don’t believe it is abusive.

Are you confusing explanation with accountability Madgran?

Starblaze. Oh well then we are back to whether adult relationships breaking down means it's wrong to keep the grandchildren away and we already have a different thread for that.

Not in my view!

One is about keeping grandchildren away.

One is about whether or not providing an explanation for contradictory actions to words is an aspect of emotional abuse, including in estrangement.

i'm lost.