Estrangement "is perhaps as common as divorce in certain segments of society"

Chewbacca -- Therein lies the issues with dysfunctional families. They do not see themselves as such. The Golden(s) also "know" there was 'no abuse' against the Scapegoat because their "normal" is abuse.

Of course they don't 'recognize' what is happening to the Scapegoat as abuse. They are taught the issue IS the Scapegoat and how they are being treated is because they deserve 'it'.

So when I hear the classic combination of drug addiction, "trouble" beginning at puberty (or from day one or any other of the 'excuse' times...) AND all the 'other siblings' who know there was no abuse? I would say it's possible the "explanation story" from the 'family' that he recanted and said it was "the drugs" is more gas-lighting.

I have yet to meet an abused child (once they come to terms that what they experienced was abuse) who changed their mind later and said, "Nope. Made it all up." Again, sounds like wishful thinking/gas-lighting to Me.

So, going with the apple analogy..... he's the bad one! ??

Hard to say Smileless; it's years since he was last seen or heard from. I do know that the last time his parents took him back in, cleaned him up, paid off his debts and got him fixed up with yet another job "through a friend of a friend", he waited until they'd gone out and then stole some of his mum's jewellery to sell for more drugs.

He can tell his friends anything he likes, those who know him, know the real him and what his mum, dad and siblings did for years and years to try and help him. He's rarely, if ever mentioned by the family. His sister's, and a brother, are lovely.

Smileless I agree and I think that attitude is starting to change over time. It's the abusive parents fault, not the poor siblings. As Holyhannah says though, the golden children learn the bad traits quite often. I think the journey to becoming abusive is like addiction, the more they do it, the harder it is to stop. Thus the cycle continues.

That's very sad Chewbacca and I wonder if anyone who didn't know the true story of his upbringing, on hearing him hinting about those false allegations thought 'there's no smoke with out fire'.

I also wonder how many people, again having no knowledge of his upbringing but knowing what a mess he was making of his life, questioned the part his parents had played in it, when they'd played no part in it at all.

Starblaze -- I have often said that all the children in a dysfunctional family are abused. The form the abuse takes is what differs. Golden children tend to carry on the cycle of abuse because how they act is the mirror of the parent.

The Golden is 'taught to hate' the Scapegoat. That's why it is almost always the Scapegoat that leaves the 'family'. It was certainly true in the two cases I am most familiar with.

Scapegoats also tend to have a better out-come as they are the least likely to carry on Narcissistic traits because they were never allowed to form them in childhood like the Golden.

rosecarmel -- Being raised by abusers is like trekking the Himalaya's without a Sherpa for certain. Your analogy is beautiful.

To be clear, I agree with HolyHannah- No tree, no apple-

It 's very sad to think of a sibling of a 'golden child' growing up hating them when they are also a victim of a dysfunctional and abusive parent(s).

Favouring a child or children over their sibling to the extent that the favoured child themselves becomes instrumental in the abuse, must be a terrible thing to have to come terms with later in life. The fact that they were raised that way is itself child abuse.

That may propel them into the life of an abuser, just as the abused child can become an abusing adult.

?

Knew you'd have heard of him rosecarmel!

Chewbacca

^Who is to 'blame' for the 'apple' happening? The tree that grew it.^

Or maggots.

Johnny Apple Maggot .. hahaha ..

My next door neighbours have 5 adult children. 4 are perfectly well balanced, individually successful people with happy marriages and young children of their own. They're a very close knit family. The 5th one has been trouble since the day he hit puberty. School expulsions, chucked off his apprenticeship at an engineering company for poor attendance and bad attitude, signed up for various college course but completed none of them, got into drugs, trouble with the police, various failed relationships and, each time, he came back home to straighten himself out, get his debts cleared by mum and dad and make another fresh start. The last time was his last time. Neighbours decided that, at 42 years old, he was old enough to stand on his own two feet and sort his own crap out; they'd done enough. He hinted at various allegations against them, childhood abuse, abandonment etc as reasons for him being a failure in everything he attempted. His siblings knew this to be completely false but asked him to provide examples, times, occurrences of his allegations. He couldn't provide a single one. He ended up admitting that he'd made it up and blamed his drug taking for "creating false memory syndrome" . But the damage was done and, to my knowledge, none of them have had anything to do with him for about 15 years. Best thing for everyone.
Highly unlikely that a family will raise 4 happy, secure, well rounded children into adulthood and not the 5th. Problem lies with the 5th one and his life choices and no one is responsible for them but him.

HolyHannah

Wibby -- "Why do psychologists always say that estrangement is caused by toxic parents!!!"

Because most of the time it is.

I really don't care WHY my 'mom' was toxic/abusive.

Why should I care? Did she care about how she as an adult made me feel as a minor child?

Abusive 'parents' reach adulthood first and should therefore be mentally mature enough to deal with their own issues.

Instead, abusers take out their anger on the most innocent -- those that cannot "get away"... Their children. As Starblaze said, what they want is "to dump all their bad feeling on but they just never run out of bad feelings, their negativity is limitless."

They lie, gas-light and project. Who would want to be around people like that? That's why when only one off-spring "walks away" maybe the parent isn't the problem but when multiple kids walk away? The parent needs to look seriously in the mirror.

Parents are the "drivers" of the family bus. If the bus drives off a cliff are you going to blame the off-spring or the "driver"/parent?

I love that most parents are confident that they are the leaders in their 'family' and they know what is 'best' and everyone should do as they say because they are the 'parent'/adult. Yet they refuse to accept that with that responsibility comes accountability.

If one or more of the children turn out "just fine" then they were 'good' parents but if any of the kids say, "No you were not a 'good' parent..." then the denial begins.

Yes, care or care not- Either way- I threw myself headlong into "why" because I thought it was my responsibility to figure out what happened to me but not just for me but all generations involved .. despite the fact that the window of opportunity to get my mom to talk was small- So trying to get to facts was like climbing Everest- Without sherpa-

We all attempted, took field notes and compared them to piece together her story back at basecamp- Grandchildren, too- Eventually, we all went out separate ways, the mountain having never shown that face-

My mother was all about "what's done is done"- And I am too, when I break the point of a pencil ..

My life has been half adventure, half avalanche ..

I really feel for these golden children. It's not as lovely and shiny as it appears. I think a lot of scapegoats hate their golden child siblings but, I don't. I can see exactly how he has normalised his abuse and now repeats the same behaviour done to him and the pain he now causes as an adult. Some golden children also realise they have been abused, and embark on the healing journey, it's just sadly less likely from what I have read and from speaking to other survivors who always know their family roles. Some golden children just keep their distance as some scapegoats do and only tolerate small amounts of their family of origin. Its sad.

A good point that is often overlooked when estrangement is being discussed Madgran.

I have seen before when there are two AC and one estranges the parents that it's suggested that the one who doesn't estrange was the 'golden child'. That of course is a possibility as is that "maybe the parent isn't the problem".

grannypiper everyone has the right to end a relationship that makes them deeply unhappy. Sometimes they have a responsibility to for the other people in their lives that are dependant on them

That's why when only one off-spring "walks away" maybe the parent isn't the problem

I think that is true. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Maybe other things have impacted to cause the problem. Each case is different.

It is a very interesting article.

That's quite true grannypiper sometimes the AC is at fault.

Who is to 'blame' for the 'apple' happening? The tree that grew it.

Or maggots.

Hithere -- "We clearly don't share the same definition of love.

She taught me what kind of mother I couldn't become.

As an adult, you fix your shortcomings, you dont make your kids pay for them."

Exactly that. If my 'mom' was sooo damaged by her upbringing, why didn't she sort her shit out before she had children like I did? I refuse to excuse her adult decisions that caused damage. Of course the funny part is, most EP's blame their AC for their shortcomings and claim AC should take responsibility for those short-comings... Which is true. Why do they not apply that to themselves?

If an adult child is a 'bad apple' then look up at the tree... That's where the apple came from. Who is to 'blame' for the 'apple' happening? The tree that grew it.

Estrangement is sometimes need by the parent, sometime the adult child is at fault

Wibby -- "Why do psychologists always say that estrangement is caused by toxic parents!!!"

Because most of the time it is.

I really don't care WHY my 'mom' was toxic/abusive.

Why should I care? Did she care about how she as an adult made me feel as a minor child?

Abusive 'parents' reach adulthood first and should therefore be mentally mature enough to deal with their own issues.

Instead, abusers take out their anger on the most innocent -- those that cannot "get away"... Their children. As Starblaze said, what they want is "to dump all their bad feeling on but they just never run out of bad feelings, their negativity is limitless."

They lie, gas-light and project. Who would want to be around people like that? That's why when only one off-spring "walks away" maybe the parent isn't the problem but when multiple kids walk away? The parent needs to look seriously in the mirror.

Parents are the "drivers" of the family bus. If the bus drives off a cliff are you going to blame the off-spring or the "driver"/parent?

I love that most parents are confident that they are the leaders in their 'family' and they know what is 'best' and everyone should do as they say because they are the 'parent'/adult. Yet they refuse to accept that with that responsibility comes accountability.

If one or more of the children turn out "just fine" then they were 'good' parents but if any of the kids say, "No you were not a 'good' parent..." then the denial begins.

I didn't have a mother who loved me a yet she claims she adored and adores me.
We clearly don't share the same definition of love.

She taught me what kind of mother I couldn't become.

As an adult, you fix your shortcomings, you dont make your kids pay for them.

It doesn't say that Wibby it's an article that relates to toxic parents specifically, not speaking of all parents, estranged or in strained relationships

Not all psychologists do thank goodness Wibby but it does seem to be an over used term when talking about estrangement; narcissistic is another.

What you've posted about your mother is very moving; a lovely thing to be able to say. I can understand why you find the commonly used description of parents who have been estranged toxic, as upsetting.