Daughter’s birthday, should I send her a birthday card ?

Still waiting on a reply on the reconciliation- how does that happen?

I am not asking my 'mom' to fall on a sword and admit to "every little parenting mistake" and beg forgiveness or anything else. It would be nice if she admit to just one thing. ANYTHING that doesn't keep her in her delusion that she was 'perfect’

No, nor do I believe this is the objective of any EAC when they try to open a dialogue with their parent(s) in an attempt to understand, resolve and heal from their experiences in the past.

Although it may feel that way, it is not an attack on the parent. It is an attempt to move forward with the parent.

Let’s face it, no one likes being wrong. It is an uncomfortable feeling for anyone. However, some people cannot acknowledge their mistakes. Not even “one thing”. It is a defence mechanism that they have developed. To admit to any wrong doing would be psychologically shattering. Even when faced with overwhelming evidence, those defence mechanisms will distort reality to make it less threatening - resulting in complete and utter denial. It is actually easier for a person to let go of a relationship, even if it is with their own child, than it is to acknowledge their mistakes, any mistake. And they will certainly not be able to take any responsibility for the ending of the relationship (estrangement) either.

I am so sorry you have experienced this with your mum HolyHannah. I can only imagine how frustrating and upsetting that has been.

Having caught up today with last night's conversation about hearsay, I'm surprised to see a post that's based on what someone has read, and the assumptions being made.

We know nothing about this mother. We don't know what she said prior to the section that has been presented here, or what she said after wards. We don't know if the section we've been given has been taken out of context or even where it was taken from.

We would have to know a lot more before we could reasonably judge that she has not given her D sufficient autonomy, to 'drive' her own life so was given no alternative but be cut out of her D's life completely.

GG65 -- If everyone thought like you did and talked to their AC the way you just spoke, I doubt estrangement would be an 'epidemic'.

I am not asking my 'mom' to fall on a sword and admit to "every little parenting mistake" and beg forgiveness or anything else. It would be nice if she admit to just one thing. ANYTHING that doesn't keep her in her delusion that she was 'perfect'.

Even something as simple as, "I have yelled at times when I have been under stress. I did not prioritise my older children when my younger children were born as much as I would have liked to or should have done. I could have been more present and less preoccupied with work and household chores." can at least open a dialogue.

"I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement." makes an AC say, "Not from your POV. And since you can't/won't see that from mine, you did? Bye."

As I have said, maybe I'm a 'good' mom and maybe not. All I know is I'm a whole lot more self-reflective then my own 'mom' so at least I am doing that right.

“I don't know WHYYY I am estranged”

I like to think I have been a good parent. I have good relationships with my children. I am proud of them. I love them deeply.

However, if any of them were to stop contact with me and provide no reason for it, I could think of many reasons, on my part, as to why this could be.

I am not perfect. I have made mistakes. I have yelled at times when I have been under stress. I did not prioritise my older children when my younger children were born as much as I would have liked to or should have done. I could have been more present and less preoccupied with work and household chores. My list of parenting mistakes is not exhaustive. There is much I would have done differently, given the chance. Such is life...

Being willing and able to see our children’s childhoods from their perspective is key. Accountability to our children is key.

HolyHannah - I think your experience of being the “bad guy” is less to do with you actually being the bad guy, and more to do with not being able or willing to see our own faults and mistakes.

It is painful to acknowledge that you could have been a better parent. Some see, some will not. There are none so blind...

GG65 -- "She is not allowing her daughter to be the “driver” in her own life to such an extent that her daughter has had no alternative other than to shut her out completely." -- My thought exactly.

Then when someone like me says, "From what you wrote/admitted to it's pretty clear your mentality is the problem..." I am the 'bad guy'.

"I don't know WHYYY I am estranged!" Then says something like that. Me -- "You might not know why but your 'child' and I do. Keep doing what you are doing and keep expecting the same result."

Rhinestone -- I am happy to answer any question(s) about my abuse and experiences.

I wouldn't say I was physically abused (as in beaten for the sake of 'that') but my 'mom' certainly hit when she was angry which is unhealthy at best and crossing into abuse for sure. When you add how she mentally beat me down as well, that is a recipe for a depressed/suicidal child.

As Starblaze once said, "Everything an abusive parent does is abusive." to which I agree. It's cumulative.

HolyHannah - no, I don’t believe she understands what she has said at all because she has essentially given the reason for the estrangement. She is not allowing her daughter to be the “driver” in her own life to such an extent that her daughter has had no alternative other than to shut her out completely.

GG65 -- Breaking cycles is an uphill task when, as the Scapegoat, you are seen as 100% of the problem. That's a role no one deserves especially a minor child with no 'power' to change the dynamic.

I read this -- “To me, one truth is that we lose our role as moms and become relics of the past, so our kids can become the drivers in their own lives.” -- I believe this is what my ED wants. She has basically severed our relationship, so she can be her own “driver.”

I wonder if that EP understands what she just said in that because it sure isn't a healthy mentality from my POV.

Rhinestone - what you have described is the cycle of abuse. A mixture of behavioural patterns picked up in childhood and coping mechanisms adopted in response to the environment.

Coping strategies can manifest as dysfunctional and toxic, very often because the individual is trying to protect themselves from further hurt.

It is complicated and difficult to unpick.

I have heard the EAC here speak about “breaking the cycle” with their own children. NC is often necessary to achieve this. As is the individual’s awareness of their past abuse, the patterns, their current behaviours and being able to hold themselves accountable. Accountability is key.

This is why I was so shocked to see EAC being told recently that “harping on” about their abuse is “unhealthy” and damaging to their families.

On the contrary, the awareness and accountability demonstrated by the EAC is in fact, very healthy. Not acknowledging the abuse and perpetuating the cycle is harmful.

Your son has not managed to break the cycle. It is a sad situation indeed.

What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent

You have described a complex backstory to your estrangement and for your son, things will not be as straightforward as that.

I always look at it as 2 seperate or overlapping issues.

Estrangement: No Contact with child because of their feelings towards you.

Parental alientation: No Contact because of the other parent/carers feeling's towards you.

Its possible for it to be both so, if the opportunity is there, I'd always advise, talking through any issues between you both and not arguing against the other partner/caregiver... Just proving them wrong by example.

It's a nightmare situation for you Rhinestone.

What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent. That is horrifying, when you can see the 'power' that the abuser has and now, you are seeing the victim becoming the perpetrator.

You're quite right about how a persons issues can create the wrong perception/truth/reality, not just for themselves but sometimes for the person they're sharing their life with.

I have an X husband who was verbally abusive to my ES. Even though I divorced him because he was physically abusive he continued with the verbal. He was always ranting and raving and dismissing both my children’s comments on everything from sports to anything they had an opinion on. They were never validated by him.
Now my ES has lived with him for two years and is verbally abusing my X by doing to my X as was done to him as a child. My ES has not held a job and has let go of all but two friends. He is now involved in Quanon. He was screaming at my mother because she doesn’t believe in it. Not sure if you all know about this global cult but it is made up of conspiracy theories about people in politics and film stars who they say abuse children physically. What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent.
Abuse does horrible things to people . I do believe my son has a mental illness and his perception that I stuck up for my DD when he and my DD had a fight has made him estrange from me. So that’s what I mean about people having issues and the wrong perception about really happened. And even though there were witnesses to my NOT sticking up for my DD he sees it in his reality.

HolyHannah I’m sorry you were abused and dismissed by your mother. That is never good. You don’t have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable but were you abused physically too?
And again this is where perception comes into play. Sometimes a family member will put labels on children and then other family members will do the same thus making that child a scapegoat .

"What makes the good reason disappear to enable reconciliation?" That's a very good question Pantglas.

Good posts Madgran.

Holyhannah I'm just stuck on, if someone is willing to say that awful thing to me, twist my words and meanings, yell at me for perceived slights without asking for clarity, be all disengenuous and make little deniable digs or otherwise lump me in with all EAC as some sort of homogenous mass... I can't look at that and see a good parent

I am not sure where that fitted here Starblaze. Please could you clarify for me. I am not asking the question to be nasty or "clever" or dig, I genuinely am not sure of the context of your comments. No worries if you prefer not to engage

I'm just 'wrong' because I won't believe in things I haven't seen.
Holy Hannah I was never saying you were wrong just to be clear.

I truly do understand what you say about evidence etc

My thoughts are that if "hearsay" becomes a reason to reject in itself then that applies across many many posts. I could write out example scenarios but I'm not going to because it is inevitable that it will ring bells with someone on here and that will be painful for them. That will make them angry, trigger upset, invalidate their experience. I have no desire to do that even inadvertently.

I believe that what you describe is your perspective about your mother. I believe Starblazes perspective about her mother. Why would I not? In the same way I believe that if an EP says they have reconciled with their AC and her AC said something then that is what she heard, her perspective and I believe that is her perspective.

I think that you dont want to discuss further and if I am right that is fine. I think Starblaze also does not wish to discuss further and if I am right, that is fine. I will keep "hearsay" as a concept in mind in future when reading posters stories on here and trying to comment constructively.

“Until then, I will continue to believe that most estrangements are for very "good" reasons...”.

The above is your last sentence in yesterday’s post 20:20 HolyHannah, and I’m interested in your views on reconciliation following estrangement. What makes the good reason disappear to enable reconciliation?

Rhinestone -- "I think what many are talking about may be perception. There are many people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not. Some have illnesses which cause skewed thinking . Those have to be considered too when talking about estrangement."

I have various mental health conditions and I know my family equates that to being "delusional" which is "people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not."

So I was abused to the point of having mental health disorders (I was 'driven' nuts) and then because I am 'nuts' my abusers use that as the 'get out of jail free card'. "Hannah is 'nuts' so therefore is lying/making things up." How bloody convenient.

I am 'nuts'/mentally ill and I know it. I also know WHY -- Narcissistic Abuse. I didn't self-abuse/traumatize to acquire C-PTSD. If that exists someone will have to point me to information on that...

Of course to my 'family' I am "delusional" because I don't think they are awesome/perfect and don't feed their dysfunction/enable, so I must be the one who is 'wrong'. Again... Very convenient.

I'm also Autistic and have an 'elephants memory'... I can't "remember" something if it never occurred. That is a tad inconvenient because the line, "I don't remember THAT." from my 'mom' became silly when I could say, "Well... We all know I forget nothing sooo...."

Rhinestone -- I think it's safe to assume that a lot more is going on/has gone then just 'mom' walking into a marked 'No Smoking' house while smoking. Abusers break any boundary (regardless of how common sense it is) because they will not be told what to do by others, especially their children, adult or not.

It's rarely about one 'little thing' like smoking in this case. It's a pattern of behaviors. If you can manage to nip one habit away they'll push back elsewhere. It's never ending conflict and chaos.

It becomes death by 1000 cuts. I'm guessing here, but I think a lot of EP's recall the "final straw" moment and think, "Well that's not THAT big of a deal." and they may very well be correct in that. However it's the cumulative effect.

By the time someone goes No Contact they usually have a list of grievances (the letter 'full of lies' that gets promptly dismissed) and each one is a grain of sand. Alone they mean nothing. Put them all in a bag together and it gets HEAVY over time and No Contact is like putting down the bags, picking up new and not allowing someone else to refill the bags (weigh you down) with their abuse.

So this is why certain EP's have little credibility to Me. Did you have some kind of message from your EAC? Often the answer is yes. Did you read said letter? The answer is usually one of two, "Yes but it was nothing but lies and 'misunderstandings' and my child not interpreting things correctly." or "I just could not get through it! It was a punch in the face! Horrible and vicious abuse!" Did they call you toxic/unhealthy/abusive etc.? Then that's what they are making their life decisions on.

Maybe the parent is and maybe not but here we go again, the parent's 'opinion' matters little and dismissing those claims will lead to and keep the parent in No Contact.

Maybe my 'mom' is a victim but I AM TOO. She can see HER victim-hood clear as day but unless she acknowledges mine. She wants sympathy and love and acceptance of who she is and so do I. I used to give that to her that thinking, "One day she'll see how 'good' I am and love me/treat me with the same respect I treat her in return."

When you finally realize that is NEVER going to happen? No Contact often results.

HolyHannah If I had a MIL that smoked I would ask her to stop around my family.We would have a discussion. If she didn’t stop then I would tell her it was unhealthy for us to be around her . Then I wouldn’t see her.
This is what I meant about having a discussion before going NC.

I think what many are talking about may be perception. There are many people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not. Some have illnesses which cause skewed thinking . Those have to be considered too when talking about estrangement.

"But I do believe those people are a small minority" -- and what is often 'sold' is the opposite to that. THAT is what I will never believe.

Obviously 'weird stuff' happens in relationships and I certainly accept/believe it could/does happen. Not every EP is 'that' parent although they mostly/nearly all claim to be. The math doesn't 'work'. That's one of my points.

Summerlove

I’m willing to believe that some people go no contact for no reason at all to do with the people they’ve estranged.

But I do believe those people are a small minority

I think that probably best describes my standpoint too.

What makes me sad is that I came here (if anyone remembers) with a very much 50/50 fault, thought process

Holyhannah I'm just stuck on, if someone is willing to say that awful thing to me, twist my words and meanings, yell at me for perceived slights without asking for clarity, be all disengenuous and make little deniable digs or otherwise lump me in with all EAC as some sort of homogenous mass... I can't look at that and see a good parent.

Counselling taught me that.

Counselling taught me the best thing to do is have nothing to do with those people.