Daughter’s birthday, should I send her a birthday card ?

I’m willing to believe that some people go no contact for no reason at all to do with the people they’ve estranged.

But I do believe those people are a small minority

Starblaze -- White flag time... I'm just 'wrong' because I won't believe in things I haven't seen.

I typed out this big long thought process and just thought "what's the point"

Madgran -- If someone doesn't believe me that my 'mom' was diagnosed as a Narcissist from my Doctor? Cool. Ask a Doctor if that is possible. They'll say, "Yes." That is corroborating evidence beyond my say-so. If there are articles from researchers/clinical professionals/Doctors saying they CAN diagnose someone like my 'mom' through Me, then my assertion is NOT 'hearsay' as I have documentation that can 'back that up'.

So in the absence of that sort of 'evidence' which is tangible/provable/relevant I can back up my assertions/claims. If someone can't provide similar type 'evidence' then I have to assume it is an opinion/belief.

It always hearsay, that's why I sometimes get a bit bogged down tying to patiently explain or elaborate. I know my mum is not here to give her side. I'm sure if she was, some would belive her over me and I'd have a seriously bad time

Yes Starblaze I agree, it is nearly always hearsay when people are telling their story, inevitable really.

One is direct from the person -- So son saying, "I estranged for no 'good' reason." The other is what 'mom' SAYS son said. There is a distinct difference.

Yes I agree that the example you say is hearsay. I have not been saying that it isn't hearsay.

I am saying that if someone posts on this forum that their AC/parent/counsellor/or whoever SAID something that is also what the poster SAYS was said and so exactly the same label of "hearsay" can be applied to an awful lot of posts really. Not just when it fits with what one believes

Both of us appear to know what hearsay means!

Starblaze -- Just like the YouTube 'mom' video and dismissing what gas-lighting is. Just because she says it's "all nonsense" doesn't make that true/into reality.

Gas-lighting, Scapegoating, No Contact and "The Silent Treatment", Narcissistic Abuse etc. all have clinical definitions. I can back those with studies/articles etc. Someone saying those things don't exist, like YT 'mom' doesn't make her OPINION/belief into reality. That's not how 'it' works.

Those that try to sell their belief as reality in the absence of corroborating evidence have an issue. There's a clinical definition for what that "is" as well. Let's just say 'denial' is the 'nice' word.

It always hearsay, that's why I sometimes get a bit bogged down tying to patiently explain or elaborate. I know my mum is not here to give her side. I'm sure if she was, some would belive her over me and I'd have a seriously bad time.

Facts aren't hearsay though, like if I say, that "No Contact" is primarily a term for distancing an abusive person and "silent treatment" is the term for abusing someone by ignoring them... I can find things that back that up, it's not hearsay.

Saying someone who talks about childhood abuse in an appropriate space is abusing their own children is downright nasty, not hearsay.

I don't know everything there is to know about other people and their relationships but sometimes I wonder, by the way they treat me and others, how they can have ever been a good parent. That's just honest truth. I am very sure that people look at me and wonder how I could possibly have been a good daughter.

I wasn't a good enough daughter so... Not new to me lol

Madgran -- I know what hearsay means to my mind. Hearsay to my mind is exactly what I stated in my example. One is direct from the person -- So son saying, "I estranged for no 'good' reason." The other is what 'mom' SAYS son said. There is a distinct difference.

I know you have made your point 100% clear. I understand your point about what you believe and why. I am not querying your belief, it is yours to have

My point is that the "hearsay" reason can be applied to anything that someone claims someone else has said. So anyone who claims that their mother/father/adult child/counsellor/therapist or whoever did or said something ...that is "hearsay" and doesn't have to be believed. Surely that becomes invalidating if no one can be believed if they are saying/claiming what someone else said to them

Madgran -- I have made my point 100% clear.

I know that EP's believe that AC do estrange from 'good' families. They are free to believe that. Until I hear from an EAC who calls that their reality I will continue to believe that 'belief' is inaccurate.

Yes I understand that Holy Hannah. You are entitled to your scepticism and your perspective.

My point was more general in terms of using "hearsay" and that definition as reason for why what someone is saying is "inadmissible" Surely the problem with that is that means that anything anyone describes as what another person said/did (their parent, their adult child/their aunt/uncle/cousin/MIL/FIl etc etc ) has to be "inadmissible".

Its a conversation/support killer ...and as I said I am not meaning "support" as "fluff" or "just agreeing"

Madgran -- Some people insist that there are AC who estranged from 'good'/loving families. I've never 'met' an EAC who has said "that". I would LOVE to hear their story as well. The issue is, NO ONE can find one.

So, in the absence of "direct testimony" from someone who identifies as an EAC, that they did indeed walk away from a healthy family, I have to question that assertion/belief.

So IF someone/anyone can find that EAC or can find a clinical article that shows most estrangements are for no 'good'/serious reasons etc. I'll be proven wrong and will stop with the skepticism. Again, no one can provide those examples...

Until then, I will continue to believe that most estrangements are for very "good" reasons...

Hearsay -- "the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law."

In other words, "My son told me that he was to blame for the estrangement." is hearsay and inadmissible

Surely the problem with that is that means that anything anyone describes as what another person said/did (their parent, their adult child/their aunt/uncle/cousin/MIL/FIl etc etc ) has to be "inadmissible"*…..

Maybe we could just "meet people where they are at" as rosecarmel suggested a few days ago on another thread ...if we want to help them. That doesn't mean agreeing with them or throwing "fluff" about, though.

Hearsay -- "the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law."

In other words, "My son told me that he was to blame for the estrangement." is hearsay and inadmissible.

Son saying, "I estranged from my family because of Me and nothing they said/did..." is direct evidence/testimony and is not hearsay.

There is a poster here on GN who after 7 years reconciled with her estranged son. He contacted her, told her he was wrong and now they are enjoying their relationship.

I hope she sees this post and responds herself. For many EAC it's their parent(s), p's.i.l. who were/are the problem and for many EP's it's their AC and/or their partners who are the problem.

You may not have met "anywhere an AC who went No contact with a family that had minor issues". For you "The only people that say such EAC do exist are those that identify as EP's".

For me, the only ones who say time and time again that those EAC don't exist are EAC.

The constant cries of invalidation are consistently coming from those EAC who are invalidating the experiences of others.

Rhinestone -- "I’m talking about little trivial problems or perceptions. Why can’t those be talked about and resolved?" -- because often a parent views a situation that way and the Adult Child on the other side is going, "That's not a 'trivial problem' or perception."

For example, a father of 4 had one daughter with breathing issues. Cigarette smoke was an issue and so he refused to let his children go to his MiL's (who was a smoker) but welcomed her at his home for visits. She saw the no Smoking signs and declared, "I'm the grand-mother and those rules don't apply to me." and refused to stop smoking inside the non-smoking home.

Son-in-law picked her up and deposited her in the drive-way. MiL calls the police accusing SiL of 'assaulting' her.

Son-in-Law's POV is -- "I kicked the witch out because she refused to stop smoking in MY HOUSE around my breathing impaired child."

Mother-in-Laws POV -- "He's an evil SiL! He's refusing to let me see my grand-children and doesn't like me because I smoke!"

I have yet to meet anywhere an AC who went No Contact with a family that had 'minor issues'. The only people that say such EAC do exist are those that identify as EP's.

I have posted articles in other threads out-lining all of these things. I think it would be fair for my detractors (those who disagree) to do their own research and show Me an EAC saying they just went No Contact for "no 'good' reason".

The best I get in return, "Well, other EP's like me say 'it happens' so therefore it is 'true'." is not 'proof'. Everything I have ever read points to serious 'family' issues that were ongoing LONG before No Contact.

As Hithere said, you can present 'proof' but if the other person doesn't want/won't accept the Alien is there and real it's rather a conversation ender.

Much like the behavior of the MiL I just talked about. I'm sure she's 'the type' that will happily tell anyone who will listen what a 'victim' she is in her circumstance.

EAC often get accused of 're-writing' our history/past and are blowing things out of proportion. The truth is, I just got tired of pretending/enabling her crappy behavior. In the story, notice that daughter didn't stand up to her abusive mom because putting up with the unacceptable is her 'normal'.

You can say we're not talking about 'real abuse' but I disagree. Abusers don't see their behavior as "wrong" or abusive so it must be the EAC who is the issue.

glynissherwood.com/going-no-contact-the-scapegoats-last-resort/#:~:text=By%20choosing%20'No%20Contact'%2C,false%20blame%20for%20family%20dysfunction.

This EP agrees that EAC are the issue. www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmVSGPygFEY

That's a great post Bibbity. In terms of being estranged " we believe we are right"; we are the ones living our truth. We feel a peace we never thought we'd reach, "I'll chat about it" and how I used too and at times still feel, but I won't justify our truth and experience.

A really great post.

I don't think I need to justify my estrangement either honestly. I don't know why anyone expects me too.

Sure, it's relevant when it is me asking for advice because people need to understand in order to best do that. I can then state what the situation is and why I have made the decision I have and I guess people will respond to that however they respond. I've asked for advice only to be told I am all kinds of awful for estranging without even the chance to explain but, wheat... chaff... I can just look for the kindness and understanding and patiently respond or not respond to the rest.

However it does annoy me that EAC are often accused of derailing threads and making it about us when, we are being asked to justify our estrangement because it appears we specifically are being judged as unworthy to give advice without the proper vetting. That's not making threads about us, that's defending our right to post here.

Or otherwise we get accused of just being here to cause trouble.

I expect the "that's not happening" brigade will be along to invalidate me by means of the evidence having being deleted as it should for violating gransnets guidelines.

So, everyone will just have to accept that being my opinion based on my experience here lol

My mum was abusive, experts agreed, I am only here in the hope that some of these relationships are saveable.... Unlike mine.

But there can be no real proof.

Every single person here could tell me I’m wrong about our situation.
I don’t care. I believe I’m right. We believe we are right and we are the ones in control.
People here wrote what they believe is their truth. But we are the ones living it.
I am at a point of peace with it all. I’ll chat about it, explain but I used to feel I had to justify. I no longer do.

Evidence is subjective in people's minds

Let's say "I believe in aliens" and you dont.
My friend the alien comes with me to meet you, shows you irrefutable proof my friend the alien comes from another world and you can say: "wow, what a nice costume. Where did you get it? I would like to buy it for Halloween"

Same with estrangement. What is evidence for one person, it is questionable or not valid for others.

I agree with what's been said, - sending a simple card will let her know 'The door's still open' for when she feels less hurt.

Rhinestone

HolyHannah Where is your evidence? I would like to be open minded and read more.
You say there is no power play. To hold back grandchildren from a parent because YOU have an issue with that parent is cruel . Again we are not talking abuse here. I’m talking about little trivial problems or perceptions. Why can’t those be talked about and resolved?

Because often people refuse to admit that “trivial” issues are issues at all. When one people refuses to accept any responsibility for their actions you can only “move past” things so many times

rhinestone
I don’t think she is a good person or role model.

And it’s not a power play. It’s parenting. She has zero power. The parents make 100% of decisions. We don’t need to factor in her wants. We do what is best for our family. And that includes us. We matter. Seeing her isn’t good for me or my husband. Which In turn negatively affects the home life of our children.

BibbityMaybe I missed it but what is it about your mother in law that you don’t want your children to see her?