Overcomplicated

You nailed it Madgran...

Holy Hannah I can see why you would find that statement upsetting/invalidating within your context.

I also noted what you said re the parent/child relationship being the exception to the rule in terms of diagnosis.

I accept that your Dr did diagnose your mother as a Narcissist. As far as I can see the problem now is arising because some posters do not, from their experiences and observations, accept that a Dr can do that. That is their opinion. It doesn't change the fact that your Dr did do that with you, nor does it change the fact of your experiences with your Dr to help you in your situation

What I am trying to say in a rather long winded way is that I don't think you have to feel your experience is invalidated because someone else doesn't think that experience is possible. Does that make sense?

There's much in what you say MamaBear, especially when you said about "others may be trying to convince the 'other side' to take the blame so they can project that onto their own experience".

It would I agree be easy for you and I to do that but all I ask, all I have ever asked, is that my account be accepted the way I accept other's accounts.

Chewbacca has actually summarised my experience here very well in her post. Too many EP's who have come here looking for support, understanding and just somewhere to share their experiences, and be comforted in the knowledge that they are not alone, have been driven away.

I'm not suggesting that they have left in vast numbers but for me, just one person who has been unable to find the support and understanding they are looking for and leaves, is one too many.

I think the fact that there are more individual posters to be found on a regular basis on the support thread, than there are on other estrangement threads speaks volumes.

Bridie -- Perhaps you should re-read my post from Thu 23-Jul-20 03:25:26

Here's the important parts:

"Chewbacca and others on the question of, "Can a professional diagnose someone with NPD in abstentia/from my mental health issues?"

I should have added the answer is almost always "No." and the reason is, no one usually knows a person long enough or spends enough time with them to be able to give enough viable information to a Doctor. The parent/child relationship differs in that regard because a child like me, who grew up with her behavior well into my 'adult years', has a closer perspective.

As I said, I am sure there are other full blown NPD's in my family due to the traits I saw in those people. Since I don't/didn't have a close enough relationship to those people, my Doctor would never call any other family member a Narcissist and neither would I.

Bridie -- But He did... Through ME. And when did this become a trial?

The doctor who didn't diagnose your parent ?
I rest my case.

Bridie -- Short of providing my personal medical information and references to my Doctor so he could explain it all to you, I'm not sure what I can say...

Needless to say and as I said before, I will stick with the professional/clinical advice of my Doctor...

If you are wrong it does alter the facts of your situation, in my opinion.

I wonder if part of that is in the way different people approach these forums

I think that is very true MamaBear .

Madgran It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience

Now that makes absolute sense MamaBear, thankyou. Although I assume you meant "when the question asked" as opposed to "you asked", directed at me personally, as I am not aware of doing that on this thread or any other.

Bridie -- You are free to believe whatever you want.

That doesn't change the reality of my situation and I have no desire to prove you 'wrong'.

That is your opinion of my situation and you are free to have 'it'.

It doesn't alter the facts of my situation.

HolyHannah
I still stand by my statement, you have yet to convince me I am wrong.

It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience.

I can understand that completely MamaBear and would agree with you but, like others have already pointed out, I've seen a great deal of invalidation of others experiences towards EP. There have been innumerable instances where I've seen that EP have been held to account and told, in no uncertain terms, that they were to blame for their situation and no amount of explanations, details of their estrangement or pleas to be heard, have brought any understanding, empathy or kindness. They've been treated harshly and dismissively on many occassions. That's why I said that "respect" for want of a better word, really does have to be in both directions. Wouldn't you agree?

Smileless That’s sad that a place that was once for support now feels invalidating. I wonder if part of that is in the way different people approach these forums. Some may ask a lot of questions to try to get to the bottom of what caused the estrangement in order to help resolve it. Others may be looking for validation that they are blameless in the estrangement. Still others may just want support from people who feel the same pain, having experienced the same loss, while knowing that it will never be resolved. And still others may be trying to convince the “other side” to take the blame, so they can project that onto their own experience. It would certainly be easy enough for you and I to do that, you having issues with your DIL and me with my MIL.

Yes, I agree that that is invalidating HolyHannah and I should know, because I've actually lost count of the number of times my experiences have been invalidated.

Invalidation is when someone makes a definitive statement like, "Unless your parent was professionally diagnosed you cannot be the victim of narcissistic abuse."

Not true and very invalidating to my life experience...

Oh yes it certainly does become invalidating MamaBear and I should know as I have had plenty of experience of that here on GN.

GN used to be a wonderful supportive environment for those living with estrangement. It was our estrangement that brought me to GN in the first place more than 7 years ago, but sadly the opposite appears to be be on the increase.

Starblaze you said this so well!
“ Questions when trying to give the right advice great

Questions when trying to understand someone and their situation wonderful

Questions that help give the right support fantastic

Questions about the validity of the professional advice someone has been given that has not only been proven 100% accurate to them by their own experience but the prescribed treatment has shown to have a huge positive impact on their lives OK, maybe but don't push it

Repeatedly disagreeing against the advice of a professional and questioning it's validity despite being given situational evidence to the contrary Stop. Just stop. That's not ok

Telling someone they are imagining it and shouldn't be hurt by an interrogation on the subject and that your opinion is equally as valid as the professionals knowing very little about them and never having met their abuser ridiculous

It causes untold issues here when this could be such a wonderful supportive environment.”

Madgran It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience.

Exactly Madgran some "parents deny their accountability" not all but some. This thread was started by a formerly EP who took full responsibility for her estrangement.

Like you, I believe what EP's and EAC say about their experiences and I know from personal experience, here on GN, that because I say we are not responsible for our estrangement that there are some who refuse to accept that parents can be estranged through no fault of their own.

If that's not an example of invalidation, I don't know what is.

There's a difference between sharing an opinion and presenting a fact

Well yes! I agree and I don't believe I suggested otherwise.

Taking your example from my perspective:

"Some parents deny their accountability".

Based on observations and experience over many years I agree that is a fact because I have specifically seen it. I also believe posters on here who have said that happened to them (although I am aware that I will only get one perspective on that in a public forum)

I am not sure one can ever say categorically that they/other parents will continue to do so although again from my observations and experience I would say that is pretty likely ..that is my opinion, based on my observations and experience! I also agree that if some parents do continue to deny their accountability, that will lead to estrangement. That is my opinion based on my experience and observations.

Therefore I am partially agreeing with you, except on the categorical assumption that parents will continue to deny their accountability (as opposed to my view that it is "likely")

At what point does that perfectly friendly and reasonable disagreeing become "invalidation" of your views by me or my views by you?

Thanks Chewbacca and you're spot on with your post @ 14.28.

Parents will continue to not hold themselves accountable as will AC no doubt, and having read over the years just on GN, some the accounts given by EP's of their AC's behaviour, if the number of parents being estranged does increase, it wont just be because of them, it will be because of their AC too.

MamaBear20

I never really understood the phrase “respect is earned”. It was always my belief that you should treat everyone with respect, including strangers, unless they behave in a way that makes me lose respect for them. I’ve never expected anyone to “earn respect” before I treat them with respect. Can someone please explain that line of thinking? I’ve heard it so many times before.

I agree because I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to, well usually it has to be consistent and many reasons as I do understand that people are reactive or just having a rubbish day.

Also I respected my children, their needs and their individuality before they were old enough to nearly understand that concept.

That's my preferred way of doing things anyway

As I said Starblaze, it's not etiquette to cross reference from thread to thread. But if and when I see it happen again, I'll point it out to you. Hopefully, it won't.

If I've done that, show me. I will apologise. I will appreciate the opportunity to continue growing as a person.

Madgran77

...sorry posted too soon by accident
...others questioned whether that was possible (to diagnose secondhand) From their experiences they held the view that maybe it isnt possible. From the perspective of posters who are clear it is possible, based on their experiences, their opinion is that it is possible.

My point is, each can take from the discussion and learn, change a view or not as they see fit. On one level each is dismissing the others viewpoint based on their experience. So is each "invalidating" the others viewpoint or just disagreeing? I'm still pondering on this one!

There's a difference between sharing an opinion and presenting a fact-

Sometimes neither is accepted-

Look at what's actually happening around the globe regarding the pandemic- People are dying from it and being hospitalized- And yet, there are the deniers-

Just like there was in the time of Galileo Galilei-

Parents will continue to not hold themselves accountable- That is a fact- My opinion is that as a result of that more parents will be estranged-