Overcomplicated

Starblaze -- Things can get over-complicated.

For me, I agree, the idea that a parent has done nothing to cause their estrangement is just not realistic. Really? Not one thing? That sounds very close to perfection...

Thoughts dictate actions. As I said, my 'mom' actually said to me shortly before final NC that she felt like she was damned if she did/didn't with me... I laughed at her. I said, "No... That's the position you put everyone else in."

In other words, no matter what I did it wasn't 'good enough' and doing nothing was just plain wrong. Oddly, I had it drilled into Me that having something, even it's not fully what you want, is better then nothing at all.

The Scapegoat learns what people should do/how they should act all the while watching our teacher do the opposite. The hypocrisy of don't do as I do...

Holy Hannah,
That's old research, can you not find something more recent please ?

narcwise.com/2018/05/13/no-contact-vs-silent-treatment-ghosting/

HolyHannah you posted "I always find an 'argument' more compelling/convincing/rational when someone can find data/statistics/facts that support their position".

I agree, but it's not always possible to do so. As you posted last month "I think it's well established that there are no definitive studies/numbers on who is what when abuse and narcissism are concerned."

It's that fear of becoming estranged and losing all contact with their GC that must be a huge dilemma for GP's who are worried, even if they do have all of the information.

GP's can lose their GC for far less.

Thank you for understanding what I meant Friendlyghost!

I'd buy that book though lol

That must be a difficult call for grandparents. I think I would be cautious and report such things as abuse can escalate to loss of life very suddenly and children have paid the price in the past. Grandparents may not be aware how bad things truly are and that must make a decision terribly difficult if they don't consider that they don't have all the information.

My grief counsellor was my lifeline Madgran77.

Rosecarmel I understand and I do not mean to oversimplify. There is no book. Just a tool for understanding that I wanted to share as it changed my outlook.

Conversely that suits my daughter very well Starblaze. I backed her into a corner and she became aggressive which just meant I needed to regain her trust. I have it now and our relationship is being rebuilt understanding why she became that way. There is no blame.

Thank you all once again for sharing your thoughts with me, it is a struggle to keep up

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Just getting the message out that I will not be arguing for my point of view or my right to have a point of view any more MissA

Hope this helps

The mind is designed with the capacity to create the idea of self, define the self, realize the self is its own design, realize the self it defined is an idea it created, realize it isn't necessary and then drop it all together-

And that's the simple explanation!

The process is considerably more than a one box tick!

Only one question to ask? Propaganda! I sure hope this isn't about a book!

It's fine to have an opinion.
There are plenty of them on here.

It's also fine for others to disagree with them, and doesn't mean anyone is unfriendly, a narcissist, or a bully.

Hi Friendlyghost I think I am responsible for a lot of those overcomplications lol

I think they are probably more important for estranged children like me to understand things but do make it hard for others to understand.

I love your saying and I agree that many parents wouldn't understand their behaviour is bullying or there wouldn't be so many estranged or simply miserable adult children/DIL/SIL out there.

Also getting in before "there are also xyz horrible DIL/SIL/adult children out there. Yes probably, I just don't think it's a 50/50 scenario. Actually, I used to think that then I came here.

I love that your daughter has met you half way and been accountable for pain she caused you. I think that's amazing. I also understand why you had to become a person worthy of apology before you got it.

My mum was the absolute other end of the scale to you, somehow I wasn't as strong as your daughter and I think that's the outcome of said articles etc and being conditioned to recieve abuse. I was much older before I found the strength to say no more.

PS: please adopt me also

PPS: You aren't imagining the unfriendly dynamic. There are a lot of motherless daughters and parents who have lost adult children here. In my imagination that's a wonderful place of love and comfort and possibly adoptions lol. In reality I've seen stray dogs who bite when backed into a corner treated better and given more love and sympathy than estranged children here. It's a shame. Our thoughts on what constitutes abuse/bullying/behaviour people should stop are often unwanted and our thoughts that parents must have played a part somewhere along the line and know what any mistakes actually were... just cause anger.

Some won't agree. I don't care. That's my opinion on it.

That must have been a difficult decision for your nan Ironflower I'm sure there are many GP's who would be conflicted given the same situation.

That's good to know Madgran as hopefully when GP's do report genuine concerns they have, they'll be taken seriously and not regarded as simply having an agenda of their own.

Abuse is very clear when you see it.

It is Ironflower and in the many cases I have been involved in only one was GPs reporting for their own agenda rather than because of clear evidence of abuse.

I am sorry that you went through that as a child and were let down by others who were making judgements about your safety

The question of reporting suspected child abuse is interesting. I wonder what percentage of reports go to CP agencies from grand-parents who have access to the grand-children versus those that do not and which cases are founded/verified...

I have to wonder if We would have been reported had We allowed Our parents access. Would Our "unconventional choices" (what they call 'abuse') be reported then? Or did it only rise to a concerning level because We denied them access?

As for how I talk and present my points... I try to post from my personal perspective, how it relates to what I learned in therapy and try to back what I say/have learned with articles that show similar findings.

The alternative would be to say, "Because I believe 'insert' and I can find a lot of other people who echo what I am saying even if it is not based on any research or makes sense/matches other findings... It's still true because I say so..." would my message be taken more or less seriously?

Personally, I always find an 'argument' more compelling/convincing/rational when someone can find data/statistics/facts that support their position then, "Because I say 'it' is true/fact and a bunch of other 'like minded' individuals agree with Me, YOU must be 'wrong'."

As for the comment from Bridie22 that was deleted. One, I didn't report it... because Two, I felt Bridie was entitled to her personal opinion on how I post and what I say.

100% my nan didn't report anything out of fear of losing contact with us. My dad would have cut them out immediately and prevented my mum from speaking to them. My mum and I would visit my nan, if my dad did he would go into her house, kick her dog and just say nasty things. He rarely visited her.

All of my grandparents have since passed away

The fact that they'd survived to their teens confirms that everything was fine then Lolo81! God knows what their cups and cutlery are like when they're at uni!

I was the proud mum of the teens with the filthy cups

Did you see a lot of your GP's Ironflower? If so could their failure to report your situation have been because they were worried your parents would estrange them if they'd done so, and they'd have lost all contact with you?

MissA.

Thank God for that MissA!

It wasn't a teen with filthy cups, it was a toddler drinking from one, but advice here was largely "mind your own business" (something I'm not very good at )

I wish my grandparents had reported me. They had to have seen that something was very wrong. A teacher did report me, however DOCS (what it was known as then) never interviewed me at all. They only talked to my parents (whom of course never mentioned what they were doing) and told them my older brother had to go.

A teen not cleaning up their space is not abuse in any way shape or form. I could list the abuse I experienced but would be too triggering for me and others atm. Abuse is very clear when you see it.

lolo81
At least we got there in the end.

No mama bear, I can assure you no chord was struck.