Overcomplicated

Starblaze

rosecarmel I know I probably get my perceptions wrong sometimes but if the same old Patterns are on repeat then perceptions are reality no matter how it is denied.

I grew up in a household where everything I said was twisted. No amount of explaining was ever accepted. I was constantly told what I meant and how I felt or how I should feel. Negative intent was given to me that wasn't mine.

That's emotionally devastating and just made me feel unloved, unwanted, disrespected, unimportant, worthless, crazy, nothing....

I just want people to hear what I am actually explaining/describing when it comes to the impact abuse has had on me and the result of telling me what I think/feel rather than asking and listening. The result of not letting me grow or learn or change from the person I am, let alone the person they have decided I am.

Please remember that is not the same as calling out my actual bad behaviour specifically. I have flaws. I'll lash out at times.

I will do the same in reverse but I can't with anyone who just wants to play the blame game and lob it straight back at me to deal with as 100% my fault, my problem etc

My marriage works because my husband and I know and understand the things that trigger us. The same with friendships.

Does that all make me defensive?

Probably but there is a lot at stake when it comes to the fabric of my mental health isn't there?

Same for anyone who has grown up with trauma. None of us agree on everything, not a single pair here in perfect lockstep. So maybe it's better to focus on what we can understand and agree on?

I think people whose intent is to seek understanding, not necessarily agreement, can converse even when the discussion becomes uncomfortable- They trust they aren't under attack-

But that change isn't always easy- And isn't one some are willing to make- They'll use it to censor you- As we've seen happen time and again! ?

We all have foibles- I have flabbergasted you a time or two, although not directed at you! ?

I think being around folks who don't agree or challenge what one thinks can facilitate growth-

rosecarmel

That's given me a lot to think on. Thank you

Madgran77

*But as far as this subject/discussion is concerned, there are those that did nothing and those that deserved nothing of the sort*

I dont understand ...which bit of discussion? I truly feel the talking in riddles ( from my perpective) is so confusing.

It's a shame that this keeps happening on threads. I am not sure there is a solution really. I wish one could be found

Perfectionism can create frustration, create the illusion that something or someone is inadequate, shameful, incapable of change- As a rule, it's the perfectionist that feels that way about themselves and projects it onto others and/or other things-

The reduction of the discussion to deeper meanings, on this platform, prevents those pestered by it to bite their lips, because it prevents them from attacking members and the thread itself- All that's left to discuss is the subject-

It seems to be working beautifully -

rosecarmel I know I probably get my perceptions wrong sometimes but if the same old Patterns are on repeat then perceptions are reality no matter how it is denied.

I grew up in a household where everything I said was twisted. No amount of explaining was ever accepted. I was constantly told what I meant and how I felt or how I should feel. Negative intent was given to me that wasn't mine.

That's emotionally devastating and just made me feel unloved, unwanted, disrespected, unimportant, worthless, crazy, nothing....

I just want people to hear what I am actually explaining/describing when it comes to the impact abuse has had on me and the result of telling me what I think/feel rather than asking and listening. The result of not letting me grow or learn or change from the person I am, let alone the person they have decided I am.

Please remember that is not the same as calling out my actual bad behaviour specifically. I have flaws. I'll lash out at times.

I will do the same in reverse but I can't with anyone who just wants to play the blame game and lob it straight back at me to deal with as 100% my fault, my problem etc

My marriage works because my husband and I know and understand the things that trigger us. The same with friendships.

Does that all make me defensive?

Probably but there is a lot at stake when it comes to the fabric of my mental health isn't there?

Same for anyone who has grown up with trauma. None of us agree on everything, not a single pair here in perfect lockstep. So maybe it's better to focus on what we can understand and agree on?

But as far as this subject/discussion is concerned, there are those that did nothing and those that deserved nothing of the sort

I dont understand ...which bit of discussion? I truly feel the talking in riddles ( from my perpective) is so confusing.

It's a shame that this keeps happening on threads. I am not sure there is a solution really. I wish one could be found

Starblaze

Madgran as much as I don't want to misstep with you and cause any misunderstanding.

When something happens too many times perception is reality.

Again I don't know how there can be an assertstion like that above which is clearly the opposite of what I think and feel about everything and it's just allowed to slide. I can only engage those who are willing to hear me as I am willing to hear them.

But again if I carefully explain what I think/feel and it is met with a determination to tell me what I think/feel and prove me "bad" then no, I won't engage that pointlessly any more.

Let them eat cake.

Or let them change the narrative and make me the bad guy in their story. I wont try to fight it any more.

I've wasted too much of my life doing that already.

"When something happens too many times perception is reality."

That's beautiful-

For myself, I would drop the "too"- But when something continues to occur, a person has the opportunity to look at it more closely, examine it further, extract the evidence, set the chaff aside for future use-

New things can be seen each time the same thing occurs- The cultivation of this subject isn't occurring in a bubble, these threads get read by more people than one might think ..

The global financial crisis in 2007/8 caused many things- One was the eruption of dialogue- It's been coming out of the woodwork ever since, leading to Arab Spring, Occupy Wall Street, so on and so forth-

But as far as this subject/discussion is concerned, there are those that did nothing and those that deserved nothing of the sort-

You didn't leave me any room to clarify, that was a statement not a question. Then you made assumptions

I dont expect you to reply.

I made an assumption that seemed logical.

I apologise that my assumption was incorrect.

I dont understand why the solution cant be that you clarify what quote you were talking about.

I think you mean by " you didnt leave you space ..." that I didnt ask you which quote you meant? I'm not sure if I am right.

It was a statement because I thought I had understood you correctly; my getting it wrong is just that.

Perhaps it would be clearer if we both quoted directly what we are talking about, which I usually try to do and I think you do too.

I am sorry it is confusing and difficult for you. That is not the intention.

Perhaps we have both learnt something from the exchange

Ok we will leave it.

Holyhannah I understand, thank you.

Madgran you said

"Starblaze once again I thought we were having a reasonable and friendly discussion, I'm sorry that I am wrong"

You didn't leave me any room to clarify, that was a statement not a question. Then you made assumptions.

I don't know how to communicate well with you. Im not saying that is your fault but it's confusing and difficult for me so I think it's best to leave it there.

I didnt take anything personally Starblaze . I just didnt know what reference you were talking about and as you were replying to my post , I quite reasonably I think thought it must be that one.

I generally dont take things personally Starblaze, just occasionally make an assumption perhaps because of the way something has been expressed by another poster. I have asked a few posters if they were referring to something I said over my years on GN, just to clarify and usually had a friendly clarification on whatever I asked.

If you wish to leave it, fine. Seems a shame that we cant just clarify and discuss but never mind.

Starblaze -- Perception is reality. My 'mom' believes I'm the crazy one so everything I say is the problem... Not what SHE said or did to cause that reaction and not what she could say or do differently because she knows I have MHI's to not get 'whatever' reaction.

Doing that would require her to examine HER behavior and perhaps even be accountable for her part? Nope. That might make her 'wrong' and then she would be as 'bad' as Me. Yuck.

Madgran I was not making any comment or reference to anything you have said and that's why I haven't been talking to you at all because I don't know how to communicate with you without you taking it personally somehow when it's not my intention and I'm just trying to answer you.

So maybe we can just agree to leave it there for both our sakes.

Sorry , can’t understand on this thread what anyone is on about

Starblaze once again I thought we were having a reasonable friendly discussion and I am sorry that I am wrong.

I assume you mean the comment I quoted "agree to disagree" ...I was referring to it purely as an example of a phrase that has clearly caused problems on this thread, I have no re collection now of the context it was used in, other than the names of the 2 posters who were discussing it. I didnt recall that it had any connection to you.

I am not sure I understand the disclaimer comment; sorry.

I wasnt expecting you to explain yourself but thankyou for replying. I was just trying to explain my wn perspective on problems that keep arising, that seem to derail and take over threads.

"I don't feel the need to say not all adult children" but you do. You quite rightly pulled me up the other day for saying EAC instead of some EAC.

Also Madgran the comment you quoted was about my estrangement with my mum.

Should I need to disclaimer every comment I make?

No one else has to.

I don't feel the need to pull up and reverse any statements I feel are generalising because I know the posters background and that they have reason for feeling that way.

For instance if I see an estranged parent say "why do these adult children all have to be so cruel and horrible" I don't assume myself to be in that category so I don't feel the need to say "not all adult children!" especially as that would ignore their pain which is valid.

Bah, I'm doing it again. Explaining pointlessly.

OK bye

Thankyou for replying Starblaze.

I understand what you are saying when you say "perception becomes reality" but I truly believe that rewordings rather than literal quotes, interpretations of things expressed, are a big part of the problem on these threads. Plus, assumptions made that something is referring to an individual rather than a generalised, possibly irritated summary of patterns that keep arising in discussions and debates.

I also think that some key things appear to be viewed so completely at different ends of a spectrum and that some of us seem unable to allow for that or look at context, as other aims or needs seem to take precedence. An example of that would be the "agree to disagree". In some contexts as described by yourself and Holy Hannah it can clearly mean something very different to what it should be taken to mean on a public forum, where it can avoid derailing threads and creating arguments

And then there is a desire to not validate other posters perspectives...I respect that, but equally, invalidating their perspective when that is where they are at, trying to catch them out, quote and requote...how does this help anyone to discuss, to possibly, just possibly rethink something? And then there are the accusations flying around about enablers, non enablers, abusers, non abusers...round and round between a group of people who presumably are here to discuss, support, advise, help, seek help, let off steam ...or whatever!

In all of the above I am not referring specifically to you, I am talking generally about the sad way that nearly every thread on the estrangement and some relationship threads seem to turn out.

As I said previously I am so so so tired of it all. I expect you are too!

I wonder if GNHQ could be more specific when a post has been deleted, not because there was anything offensive in that post, but because it was in direct reference to another post that was offensive which has now been deleted.

It would prevent some from jumping to the wrong the conclusions.

I agree that perception can be reality, but don't see how someone can perceive they've been met with a determination to tell them what they're thinking/feeling and a desire to prove them bad, when that's never been the case. Especially when that has been happening to a poster for sometime now, and they've participated in that behaviour.

Madgran as much as I don't want to misstep with you and cause any misunderstanding.

When something happens too many times perception is reality.

Again I don't know how there can be an assertstion like that above which is clearly the opposite of what I think and feel about everything and it's just allowed to slide. I can only engage those who are willing to hear me as I am willing to hear them.

But again if I carefully explain what I think/feel and it is met with a determination to tell me what I think/feel and prove me "bad" then no, I won't engage that pointlessly any more.

Let them eat cake.

Or let them change the narrative and make me the bad guy in their story. I wont try to fight it any more.

I've wasted too much of my life doing that already.

I've just learnt that apologising just gets me a lot of "see! It is ALL your fault!“......*and no reciprocation, forgiveness or changes.*

Is that what is said or is it misunderstanding and perception?

I am truly not trying to get at you here Starblaze and I dont expect a reply as I know you are not engaging, but I do still come back to interpretation and perception as worth considering, by all of us I expect!!

Yes Madgran that's the thing about claims of invalidation isn't it.

I've been trying to explain this for a long time but get nowhere!

"waaaaaaah, my experiences of estrangement are far worse than those of an EP and your not listening to ME"

Yes, we have listened to you and we've sympathized and commiserate with you but you're not alone in your pain.

"Waaaaaaah but my pain is greater and more important than yours"

No, your pain is recognised and you're not alone, others are in similar situations and they also need to be heard.

"Waaaaaaah, you are so mean and youre invalidating me! I don't want to hear of anyone else's pain or experiences."

No, you're being invalidated but not everyone agrees with everything you say and other people's experiences are just as valid as yours. That's not invalidation, it's having the maturity and wisdom to see that there are many different ways of seeing estrangement situations.

"waaaaaaah you are DEFINITELY invalidating me! Listen to me! My pain is greater than yours. My situation is worse than yours. "

It's ridiculous.

FriendlyG thank you for this post. I really appreciate it and I accept my part in things. I've just learnt that apologising just gets me a lot of "see! It is ALL your fault!“ and no reciprocation, forgiveness or changes.

So no contact for me.

Deletion relevance depends on the reasons for deletion. So a deletion that has been done because it refers to a post deleted because it goes against guidelines should be tallied separately, if one ever wanted to bother!

I understand that a determination to assign blame is not conducive to healthy discussion.

I rather think that one is not suited or suitable to explain why when so many have tried and failed but I will try.

My daughter and I were able to make an agreement to start a new chapter. That did not mean not acknowledging or discussing the past but an agreement on how we would engage each other in future. To do that I allowed myself to be open and willing to understand and avoid behaviour that hurt her whether or not I agreed with it. Upon seeing the outcomes and the wonderful relationship we have now I cannot do other than acknowledge she was right to address it with me.

My deepest and sincere thanks to all who have shared their views here, I have taken much from it

I just did a quick running tally of deleted comments.

Lol people who have had deleted comments saying others have had deleted comments is proof of anything.

Glad I screenshot everything or I'd think I was going mad.