Overcomplicated

I felt rather drawn back this evening. It was a busy exciting day and I couldn't wind down.

There is a lot of discussion on what validation is and a lot of discussion on what abuse is.

May I say that I know from discussion with my daughter she does not view her childhood as abusive at all but loving and secure. Perhaps that is what allowed her to fight me when I became too attached and overbearing to her as an adult. I believe the word enmeshed was bandied about but that is a complicated term for what is really a rather simple problem. I refused to let go even a little.

Of invalidation, when my daughter was railing against me as a young adult I offered her no validation. I did not believe that behaviour that came from love could cause her pain. Grief counselling taught me the truth. Of course I could validate my daughter when I became aware that she was speaking the truth.

Validating the truth is why I have my daughter and my lovely grandchildren. My daughter for her part always knew my pain at her estrangement was the truth, just that my belief I was not responsible was not. That does not mean I lied, just that I was not privvy to the truth.

I suppose when one does not validate another it is because they do not believe what they hear to be the truth. Then it comes back to my simple tool. Would it cause harm to another to deny their truth when it has no relationship to you? Is it necessary harm? Or is it bullying?

Of course one absolutely cannot validate a lie but you must be sure it is not the truth first.

Once again I know I cannot hope to follow the nuance and depth here. My deep and sincere hope that those who have suffered may find peace

MamaBear20 -- My 'mom' would use that line as a way to say, "I'm 'right' and you are wrong and I am 'bored' with trying to explain to you how wrong you are." So I have a different perspective on that sentiment/statement. It really depends on the manner it is meant. It can either be healthy or unhealthy.

MamaBear20 Thankyou.

It would seem so! . Such a shame!

Madgran well said! I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a rebuttal to “let’s agree to disagree”. That’s just wanting to keep an argument going for the sake of arguing.

I know, I know .. When dogs don't perform cheap parlor tricks on command the audience sometimes triple-rolls their eyes .. slot-machine style

It was raised eyes at the silliness and the pettiness. Nothing to do with cheap parlor tricks or dogs or slot machines!

Agreeing to disagree is a recognised respectful way to stop a conversation descending into an argument yet again, as keeps happening on this thread! It's not "validating", not "not validating", it's not "cruel", it's not "unkind", it's not "dismissive" , it's not "laughing out loud" , it's not "behaving like a child rather than an adult they are supposed to be" ..or all the other things that are a matter of concern for many posters apparently, all with different experiences and perspectives!

It is just agreeing that you don't agree respectfully and moving on rather than creating argument that might become some of those things above.

To dismiss it...what label would one give that?

Not debating this, just so tired of the circular arguments, the digs, the unpleasantness, the accusations, the endless point scoring, the ignoring some posters instead of discussing respectfully! So so tired of it.

Yes I could just give up and go away. But the subjects are potentially interesting, the posters are potentially interesting to talk to, I would like to offer help if I can from my perspective and experiences, I would like to hear others advice and support, I would like to give support if I can, I would like to chat, to discuss, to learn...I am beginning to think I am just expecting too much, nothing ever seems to change!!

What a shame!

Oh dear rosecarmel.

I know what you mean Madgran; no one needs to invalidate those who constantly cry "invalidation" when they do such a good job of it themselves.

Madgran77

*Smileless - We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel*

No, I don't have to agree with those terms

....Oh for goodness sake! ???

I know, I know .. When dogs don't perform cheap parlor tricks on command the audience sometimes triple-rolls their eyes .. slot-machine style ..

Smileless - We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel

No, I don't have to agree with those terms

....Oh for goodness sake! ???

Smileless2012

We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel.

No, I don't have to agree with those terms-

We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel.

Smileless2012

Well I don't see any similarity in the situation you've described and mine rosecarmel. Responding in writing to an incident you didn't even witness, the details of which were given to you in writing, has no comparison to a face to face confrontation forced on you, by someone in your own home who pushed their way in.

I indicated the situation was similar, I did not go into detail- I was asked a question, I respectfully answered-

We had different responses to a common problem-

Well I don't see any similarity in the situation you've described and mine rosecarmel. Responding in writing to an incident you didn't even witness, the details of which were given to you in writing, has no comparison to a face to face confrontation forced on you, by someone in your own home who pushed their way in.

Starblaze

rosecarmel I suppose that is something.

I think I could have forgiven my mum had she at least come to an internal realisation and changed her behaviour. I have to live with what others close to her think of me anyway but at least we could have worked on a positive future relationship?

I don't know and I don't know if giving it too much head's space would be good for me because at the time of our estrangement her behaviour was still escalating.

I understand- My being the lesser in regards to family members is ingrained- Mom is gone, therefore, she will not be doing any explaining of the pattern put in place- So it's up to me to spread the word and/or not engage-

I carry my mother's heart in my heart, regardless-

Smileless2012

I'm sure you'll accept that to intervene in a situation you are not directly involved with, with someone who is not married to your AC and when you're not struggling to cope with an increasingly difficult and upsetting situation, where you're relationship with your AC appears to becoming distant and you're having virtually no contact with your only GC, is totally different rosecarmel.

Thank you Sparkling and Chewbacca I've just got Mr. S. to check I don't have a target pinned on my back because that's where the 'knives' are going in isn't it. It is bullying and bullies being the cowards that they are don't act alone and come at you from behind.

It's the sheer hypocrisy that gets me and TBH sometimes makes me laugh, especially when we're constantly being bombarded with links to the worse examples of EP's, lists of things that EP's have apparently said and constant references to narcissists by the very people who are bullies themselves.

I responded in written form to an incident that was described in writing-

I certainly wasn't there when the event occurred- Nonetheless, I do understand having been in a similar circumstance-

Which is what was asked- And I answered-

Starblaze -- That's just it. They ramp up the abuse, we get more and more frustrated. We finally say enough and when we walk away? Poof -- They are in instant victim...

Just like the article I posted. "They walked away! They are using the 'silent treatment' They are the evil Narcissist!"

Yeah...

The funny part is they always say, "We are wiling to listen and try to work things out..." but part of "working things out" means owing your own part and saying the 'magic words'.

Some people, like my 'mom', will NEVER utter those 'words' and until they can figure out a way to say, "You're right. I was out of line there... I'm sorry I hurt you." then nothing is going to change.

LOL -- Gotta love defacing family photos... Very mature.

rosecarmel I suppose that is something.

I think I could have forgiven my mum had she at least come to an internal realisation and changed her behaviour. I have to live with what others close to her think of me anyway but at least we could have worked on a positive future relationship?

I don't know and I don't know if giving it too much head's space would be good for me because at the time of our estrangement her behaviour was still escalating.

"Really, you need to take a long hard look at yourself" yes but they wont will they Chewbacca which is why they project all of their negativity onto others, so they wont have to recognise it in themselves.

I'm sure you'll accept that to intervene in a situation you are not directly involved with, with someone who is not married to your AC and when you're not struggling to cope with an increasingly difficult and upsetting situation, where you're relationship with your AC appears to becoming distant and you're having virtually no contact with your only GC, is totally different rosecarmel.

Thank you Sparkling and Chewbacca I've just got Mr. S. to check I don't have a target pinned on my back because that's where the 'knives' are going in isn't it. It is bullying and bullies being the cowards that they are don't act alone and come at you from behind.

It's the sheer hypocrisy that gets me and TBH sometimes makes me laugh, especially when we're constantly being bombarded with links to the worse examples of EP's, lists of things that EP's have apparently said and constant references to narcissists by the very people who are bullies themselves.

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Smileless2012

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

I forgot to add that I agree, you didn't raise her but did who she chose to marry- If he didn't exist, she might well have married someone else-

Smileless2012

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

Yes, as recently as last year- A similar situation- Someone got abusive, I stepped in to de-escalate- Not my child either- And yet, I do hold myself accountable-

We bring these exquisite creatures into the world, not knowing in advance how we'll fail them- No parent can equip their kid for every worldly circumstance- Therefore, to have children is to assume lifelong responsibility and learn by it-

You're absolutely right there Sparkling; the flack that Smileless endures is bullying.

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Starblaze, the examples you give are staggering, they are cruel, abusive posts that obviously have been posted by people with mental issues. Why are you citing things like that? They are very extreme and certainly not representative of the genuine posters attempting to respond. I feel Smileless once again has come in for a lot of flack by responding in a considered manner. Once again these threads follow a common pattern and are best avoided.

Starblaze

rosecarmel I don't think there is ever really worse, just different and facing different challenges and outcomes that people need to try to understand in order to show real empathy.

I can understand that estranging my mum may have caused her some pain. I can even understand that trying to show her her flaws caused her some pain.

She will not understand my pain because doing so removes her outlet for hers. She also does not want to deal with where her pain originally comes from because she will have to fully face the fact that her coping mechanisms were distructive to her own child.

Also she can't make things right with me without blowing up her whole world with the truth of her behaviour.

That's how she got stuck in the cycle and that's why I refused to stay part of it.

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

The punching bag, yes-

Her: "You were difficult .."

Me: Doh!/Duh!

Without discussing it with me, she assumed responsibility, osmosis style, by no longer referring to me as difficult-

I'm certain she worked some things out privately but somehow couldn't find the words to tell me-