Overcomplicated

Indeed MissA I do wonder why there's this constant need to prove how vile EP's can be from EAC. There's a danger I think of invalidating their own experiences by this apparent obsession to invalidate not just EP's experiences but the EP's themselves.

I'm sure the same can be said about estranged children, too.

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

Smileless2012

A red rag to a bull is something, perhaps a comment or criticism, intended to deliberately provoke someone else into reacting negatively.

That's certainly what our ES's wife intended to happen that day but thankfully I managed to retain my composure and responded with "no .... you've always been like this".

The situation invited an opportunity to engage her, to calmly inquire how she came to that conclusion instead of claiming she'd always been that way -- when in reality she was conditioned to be that way-

She cannot shoulder the responsibility of how she came to be and shoulder the responsibility to begin to understand, with help, what damage has been done to her too-

It's circumstances like these that both parties can assume responsibility for the way in which they handled the situation instead of resorting to blame-

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

A red rag to a bull is something, perhaps a comment or criticism, intended to deliberately provoke someone else into reacting negatively.

That's certainly what our ES's wife intended to happen that day but thankfully I managed to retain my composure and responded with "no .... you've always been like this".

I think it's all to do with the apparent one rule for EAC and another for EP's Chewbacca.

Perhaps some need to invalidate others to ensure their own validation. It's rather sad really to think that anyone should need too.

That's the problem with taking a few words from a much longer post out of context "like waving a red flag in front of a bull" is deliberately missing out the fact that the poster made the bull reference on account of being the star sign Taurus.

You're right Chewbacca it is almost exactly the same as our situation with our ES's wife.

Blaming victims for their reaction is as low as it gets... but that's just been done hasn't it, with yet another out of context re posting of an old post from a EP!!!

HolyHannah Why do you feel that you have the right to demand validation for every one of your experiences and yet when it's pointed out that, actually, your experiences and some one else's, at the other end of the spectrum have many similarities, you call it as low as it gets. You invalidated my post. So why should anyone believe or validate anything you say?

MissAdventure

That of course, means that people are free to assume the same about others, doesn't it?

So we are back to the same old cycle. Anything anyone says is probably not true.

Lots of invalidation.

It isn't an assumption- Its a similarity: Nothing- Each one blaming the other-

That of course, means that people are free to assume the same about others, doesn't it?

So we are back to the same old cycle. Anything anyone says is probably not true.

Lots of invalidation.

Chewbacca

^I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an^ emotional punchbag to cope.

That sounds almost identical to the situation that Smileless has with her DIL doesn't it? Blaming someone else for their own inadequacies because that's easier than looking at themselves. Same problem: different ends of the spectrum.

Having being given generous backstory, I'd consider it could be 2 in the same, each one blaming the other, neither assuming any accountability, and possibly a pattern the son / husband cycles through?

Chewbacca -- It depends on if the person is a victim of abuse. Victims sometimes lash out... It just depends on who the aggressor is...

Personally, I am not inclined to believe that someone who says that disagreeing with them is "like waving a red rag in front of a bull", is less likely the aggressor then the person they are accusing of being a Narcissist...

Blaming victims for their reaction to abuse is as low as it gets...

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

That sounds almost identical to the situation that Smileless has with her DIL doesn't it? Blaming someone else for their own inadequacies because that's easier than looking at themselves. Same problem: different ends of the spectrum.

rosecarmel I don't think there is ever really worse, just different and facing different challenges and outcomes that people need to try to understand in order to show real empathy.

I can understand that estranging my mum may have caused her some pain. I can even understand that trying to show her her flaws caused her some pain.

She will not understand my pain because doing so removes her outlet for hers. She also does not want to deal with where her pain originally comes from because she will have to fully face the fact that her coping mechanisms were distructive to her own child.

Also she can't make things right with me without blowing up her whole world with the truth of her behaviour.

That's how she got stuck in the cycle and that's why I refused to stay part of it.

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

*They'll deny anything that makes them look bad and project everything back*; absolutely even when they're in the middle of that bad behaviour!!

The day our ES's wife came down to our house, ranting and raving at me like a mad woman. All of a sudden she stopped and said "you've done this to me, you've made me like this".

Can't get a better example of denial and projection than that.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I mentioned the BLM movement earlier and that wasn't well received but I agree there is a parallel...

Sometimes, when your racial group/who You identify as etc. is being ignored in a conversation it is easy to forget empathy...

The healthy mentality should be, "I have/had it "rough" but I need to remember I'm not the only one to have a 'bad time' and sometimes another persons 'bad time' IS factually worse then MY 'bad time' so maybe I should just listen..."

It's the "apple and orange"/Flat/Round Earth comparison... Yes, being abused by a Narcissist (diagnosed "officially" or not) is terrible. Fact. Being abused by a Narcissistic 'parent'? NOT the same as adult to adult abuse and never will be in my eyes.

Determining "worse" as a layperson is subjective- Closer to labeling and dependent on preference- No matter how much research is done, it isn't the same as making an assessment as a professional-

Barring that, a person might need to have a clear picture of who they were, who they are and what they aspire to become- Some prefer not to go further or change-

Does "worse" help or hurt, does it dismiss the suffering of another?

Children and adults are obviously different- If a person doesn't seek help, their childhood tragedies and patterns carry over into adulthood- What's "worse" then?

Perhaps a calm approach can provide the insight to determine the circumstantial differences but offer equal compassion to both?

I'm not presenting an argument, but an inquiry-

"No, I’m not very good at pretending flaws don’t exist. It’s a flaw Of mine."

It's a 'flaw' of mine as well. LOL

And because EVERY "flaw" of mine (real or perceived) was not only 'pointed out' but highlighted -- I got very good at overlooking/excusing minor flaws in other people... It's called enabling... The "flaws" I saw in my 'mom' and 'family' were far worse then My alleged 'crimes'... I was just too C-PTSD'd/Stockholm syndromed to understand/grasp until I got help...

rosecarmel -- I mentioned the BLM movement earlier and that wasn't well received but I agree there is a parallel...

Sometimes, when your racial group/who You identify as etc. is being ignored in a conversation it is easy to forget empathy...

The healthy mentality should be, "I have/had it "rough" but I need to remember I'm not the only one to have a 'bad time' and sometimes another persons 'bad time' IS factually worse then MY 'bad time' so maybe I should just listen..."

It's the "apple and orange"/Flat/Round Earth comparison... Yes, being abused by a Narcissist (diagnosed "officially" or not) is terrible. Fact. Being abused by a Narcissistic 'parent'? NOT the same as adult to adult abuse and never will be in my eyes.

Summerlove

Starblaze

Summerlove I can't imagine if I said, I want to overlook these flaws in myself and you would say "OK, let's overlook each others flaws and tell each other and everyone else they don't exist!".

Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful. For example it's often:

"You do it too!"

Yes but that was in the past and this is happening now. I can learn from past behaviour... Can you?

Also people can validate my feelings and STILL say, I don't like your behaviour/the way you are expressing your feelings. I have a lot of respect for that and the validation for me, helps me calm down and think logically before I deal with the next bit

No, I’m not very good at pretending flaws don’t exist. It’s a flaw Of mine.

?

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I think jeering, by my personal understanding of the word, is more how she talked to other adults if she thought she could get away with it. She actually kept insulting Me quite quiet because they were usually inaccurate put-downs and other adults might notice her insults to Me were just plain lies... Those lies usually started with, "You always..." or "You are so..."

By the time I went NC my 'mom' was out of anything resembling a friend. She wasn't a good enough Narc (hence I give her a C-grade) to keep even the most gullible adult as a friend. When you can't fool the Scapegoat anymore, your mask slipped too far... And a Goat, once trained, cannot be returned to the herd... I can't reenter 'the herd' because I refuse to 'drink' from their "poisoned pond" anymore and I also can smell when someone else's "pond" is dirty and refuse to drink/believe them when they say their water is 'clean'.

Have you ever drank and were like, damn, that was a mistake? Hahaha!

Sometimes the line between empathy and trust escapes me- I believe every person is the real deal, but can't say with certainty that I can "always" determine what their deal is- Which can make it difficult to meet people where they are at at times, but it's not a requirement for me to engage in conversation with them, to listen and come away having learned something-

The BLM demonstrations are a perfect example of the above- You don't have to know every reason of every attendee for being there- All you have to do is show up, as equals-

rosecarmel -- I think jeering, by my personal understanding of the word, is more how she talked to other adults if she thought she could get away with it. She actually kept insulting Me quite quiet because they were usually inaccurate put-downs and other adults might notice her insults to Me were just plain lies... Those lies usually started with, "You always..." or "You are so..."

By the time I went NC my 'mom' was out of anything resembling a friend. She wasn't a good enough Narc (hence I give her a C-grade) to keep even the most gullible adult as a friend. When you can't fool the Scapegoat anymore, your mask slipped too far... And a Goat, once trained, cannot be returned to the herd... I can't reenter 'the herd' because I refuse to 'drink' from their "poisoned pond" anymore and I also can smell when someone else's "pond" is dirty and refuse to drink/believe them when they say their water is 'clean'.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....

What about "jeering"?

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....

We heard the word often growing up- When we talked back- It was a loud household-

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....