Overcomplicated

I think belief, like denial, provides comfort, a soft place to fall- What it doesn't provide all on its own is all the answers- Answers take work- "Don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response to circumstances that have yet to be understood-

It's a bit of a pointless thread if nobody believes anything anyone posts.

Just because someone comes to that conclusion doesn't mean the people around them have to agree or believe them.

Absolutely true for everyone, in every occassion.

rosecarmel -- Exactly. I think/proclaim I did 'nothing', therefore I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement...

Just because someone comes to that conclusion doesn't mean the people around them have to agree or believe them.

"Nothing" is a conclusion people come to-

Ultimately I am responsible for my behaviour as an adult no matter what else was a factor in it.

I so agree with this! Ultimate self responsibility for the way we are; not blaming anyone or anything else for being "us". And I found that my estrangement actually enabled me to do things that, until then, I wouldn't/couldn't ever have envisaged before. It was liberation!

Holyhannah if something is happening to someone right in front of you, it is time to address that, not play "forget you! what about me?".

Holyhannah yes, thank you, I see what you mean.

rosecarmel nothing only happens in a void doesn't it and even then there is probably something going on.

I think that a large part of moving on has been reconsiling my own behaviour with myself. I can't reconsile it with my mum, if I could we wouldn't be estranged. Any apology I gave was not good enough and I have no memory of her ever taking responsibility or apologising to me. I definitely can learn from it for myself so that I can have healthier relationships with other people I care about. Ultimately I am responsible for my behaviour as an adult no matter what else was a factor in it.

Again child me came into this world 100% innocent but at some point I became responsible for myself. I'm not exactly sure when that happens though and I'm not sure if the damage done to my growing brain moved the point that happens.

I grew up though, I became more healthy yet the dynamic between me and her continued to worsen. She did not want me to become a person who was changed or forgivable or she could not find excuses to abuse me.

A point I've been trying to clarify for a long time MissA! I know, from my own situation, that I could possibly have done more to repair the relationship with my mother. But I just didn't want to. My life was, and is, easier without her in it. So that brings us right back round to the beginning of the discussion: if my mother had behaved differently, would we have estranged or, if I had behaved differently would we still have a relationship? Blame is very difficult to apportion because, as has been said repeatedly, we only get to hear one side of it. The only thing that binds them is the hurt and pain that ensues. And that's the same for everyone.

Meant to add and some AC and/or their partners go to great lengths to ensure that estrangement takes place.

"Some parents go to great lengths in at attempt to escape the pain of estrangement" what are you saying rosecarmel that P's who find themselves estranged didn't do anything to try and prevent it?

Silly me, of course that's what you're saying because no parent can ever be estranged because it's their AC whose at fault can they.

Well logic would dictate that you're correct MissA but unfortunately logic doesn't seem to figure very much when it comes to discussing estrangement does it.

So, that is true for those who eastrange then?
It can never be that they have done nothing?

Smileless2012

rosecarmel you posted that scientifically parents are incorrect when they say did nothing. This thread is on the estrangement forum and there is nothing scientifically proven that parents who say they did nothing with regard to their estrangement are incorrect, therefore what you posted is an opinion.

Nothing is never an option, Smileless- It's not possible- People interact: Parents with their children, children with their parents- Their interaction with one another is cause and effect-

Some parents go to great lengths in an attempt to escape the pain of estrangement instead of staying put and figuring out what they did to contribute to the outcome-

It can never be nothing-

Quite so Smileless, it's a complicated and emotive enough subject as it is without bringing racism into it.

It might be better if we kept the discussion to estrangement as that as we all know is both a complex and emotive issue.

Not sure I'm comfortable with comparisons to the BLM to be honest.

I agree that there's no need to add on "But I'm hurting too" but have never seen anyone responded too in that way here on GN.

Starblaze -- My view is, yes, everyone and their feelings matter but... There's sometimes a wrong time/place to voice those opinions/feelings.

For example -- The BLM movement. When discussing that topic with minority groups the last thing they want to hear is, "Well, white people get killed by the police too!"

That's true but it distracts from the point that people of color are at much greater risk and gives the feeling of, "Don't forget I matter too!" Yes. Everyone knows that but for a moment can we talk about Black Lives?

Sometimes, especially when talking to marginalized groups, like child abuse victims, it's better to just say, "That's terrible. I'm sorry that happened to you." PERIOD.

There's no need to add on, "But I'm hurting too!!!!" every time someone explains the damage abusive parents do. As we have talked about, adult/adult abuse is bad but hopefully mature adults have the tools to deal with a bully/abuser. Children don't have any coping mechanisms or 'power' to deal with an adult 'parent' who bullies them.

It's apples and oranges.

Aren't everyone's feelings and experiences tied to who they are as a person?

I don't see posters here on GN having their views overruled by other posters presenting their experiences as more important.

I do see posters having their experiences invalidated with comments like 'you must have said/done something' even though the poster says differently, together with '......never happens and one occasion 'I don't believe you'.

You're exactly right PF. How many times has it been said here on GN that it's not so much what you say but how you say it?

Personal insults and attempts to discredit another poster aren't necessary if you don't agree with them, you just have to say I disagree.

I tend to put 'I don't agree' and see nothing invalidating in doing so. TBH I think to say 'here are my thoughts on this' is unnatural as it's not something I would say during the course of a normal conversation.

Thank you the explanation Starblaze but I'm not at all sure that it addressed my query. In your post @ 20.46 yesterday, you gave a list of phrases that you felt were an invalidation of experiences and one of them was:

My situation was worse because...

Are you now saying that actually, "My situation was worse because", is acceptable?
And that one person's experiences that have caused pain and hurt "trumps" another person's? Surely not! Painful experiences are the same for everyone!

I often say that abuse done to a child is not the same as abuse to an adult. That's because a child's brain is growing and developing and abuse can cause some areas of the brain to become overdeveloped or underdeveloped (this is all backed by science). This causes lifelong issues that some people learn positive methods and techniques to overcome and unfortunately some people learn negative methods to cope. For both, stress can cause the lizard brain (fight or flight) to take over. For both, they didn't get to start life with the right tools in their toolbox and had to create their own.

Pointing out that adults experiencing abuse for the first time have much better tools to cope is not a comment on pain so not in competition with it.

The pain people have or are suffering as a result of anything is unique and individual to them. The worst thing that has happened to someone is their 10 on the scale of bad things in their experience. I would never try to argue against that.

I so agree, some of people's feelings and experiences are really tied to who they are as a person so disagreeing with that can be disagreeing with who they are which is invalidating.

But doesn't that actually read as "Don't disagree with me because" My situation was worse ..?

PetitFromage

I think it’s a question of listening to what the other person is saying, really listening, and responding with tact, kindness and respect, even if you don’t share their views.

I so agree, some of people's feelings and experiences are really tied to who they are as a person so disagreeing with that can be disagreeing with who they are which is invalidating.

That doesn't mean you can't have your views at all. It's just not overruling their views by trying to make yours more important

Thank you petit fromage, exactly that. It's been repeatedly said across all of the estrangement threads that there are so many variants of estrangement; parents from their children, adult children from their parents et al, and there are millions of individual reasons for those individual estrangements. It's been repeatedly said that, estrangement from both ends of the spectrum should be respected, listened to and not judged but sadly, that's not always been done.

No one, outside of a family's own dynamic, ever actually knows what the cause of any family breakdown is; we only have the one side of information that is presented to us here and we can only form our own conclusions or opinions based on the information given.