Overcomplicated

Holyhannah amazing video. Thank you so much for that

I have to look at people compassionately in order to continue to understand what happened and continues to- There's very little, if anything, to defend when things are seen clearly-

"Better" can be used as a filter or a filter-free way of seeing-

"Proven" can be used similarly, as an ever expanding concept or finite, immovable conclusion-

I watched a great video today (I'll post the link at the end) and it really made me reflect...

I once told a story about laundry/wash on the line:

Every day an older woman stood at her kitchen window and watched the young neighbor hanging her laundry to dry. The older woman complained to her husband, "Why does she bother? It always comes out 'dirty'. Someone needs to show her how to do the wash 'right'."

One morning the older woman woke up and lo and behold, the younger neighbors laundry looked sparking white! The woman exclaimed, "Husband look! It's like the young girl finally 'heard'/listened to ME! The laundry looks amazing!"

The husband says, "How interesting. Nothing has changed with the neighbor... I just cleaned the kitchen window."

In other words, the older woman saw what she perceived as the young neighbor not being good at her job/life. What was wrong was the older persons perception/'dirty window'.

I always, from my youngest memories, felt like I was viewed through some kind of "negativity filter". I was always such a realist and truly believed I saw things as they were and what I saw wasn't 'right' and I didn't know WHY. Add the gas-lighting Narc 'mom' who invalidates not only your reality but actively lies to conceal her 'part' in why you feel so 'wrong'/bad? It's crazy making.

The partner of a Scapegoat child is always a threat to a Narc parent... One, that partner might me another Narc looking for a perfect 'victim' (they come pre-trained by the 'parent' to think the crazy behavior is 'normal') or worse for a Narc parent? A Goat meets another Goat or a person from a healthy family. Either way? Their behavior becomes highlighted for the unhealthy it IS and No Contact is an easy sell/solution to the 'problem'...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O9tMjeghXo

rosecarmel -- C-PTSD survivors tend to be hypervigilant. It's one of those symptoms that I have to work to control. I used to deal with panic attacks but haven't had one in years...

Hypervigilance! It does have an upside- ? I can detect the scent of stuff when others don't or before they do- When I visited my home state during Autumn, it smelled significantly different than where I live now, during that time of year- Others didn't notice- It also helps with creative projects-

Starblaze -- "Zoning In". I love it. It's very apt.

I hyper focus at times Holyhannah

Maybe I should call it "zoning in" lol

Starblaze and rosecarmel -- I tend to call 'it' "zoning out".

Daydreaming is another coping skill. I think it's why I am still very creative and also why I see the beauty in small things...

I also can stay focused on small things for long periods although that stems from a different part of my mental health...

rosecarmel that sounds beautiful... I think daydreaming became a method of coping for me and sometimes it's not productive

And worse of all those who invalidated the loudest have mostly declared at one point or another, that their son or daughter in law is definitely a Narcissist

Don't forget those who declare their mothers are a narcissist who loudly invalidate others.

Starblaze

I totally understand Holyhannah

rosecarmel I'm a day dreamer too. Its gotten me into trouble once or twice when people thought I was staring at them when I wasn't aware they existed.

I agree it's often a judgement on themselves they are projecting onto you. I don't stare AT people and don't become angry if they seem to stare at me, I smile and if they don't react I realise they don't see me at all

I daydream too, off in lalaland somewhere! Or autopilot lol- But I photograph and observe nature for extended periods, paying full attention to what I'm doing-

Summerlove

^And worse, those who invalidated the loudest have mostly declared at one point or another, that their son or daughter in law is definitely a Narcissist...^

I’ve notice this a lot. their Experience and their time speaking to other people have convinced them of this, however to say that a parent is a narcissist requires that parent going directly to therapy otherwise it’s just not true

Here's an example:

Some doctors/professionals have "diagnosed" politicians, Trump is one of them- Some doctors/professionals warn against diagnosing the politicians since they are not their patients-

They "warn" against doing so, they don't indicate that it can't be done or that it is not possible-

Much that manifests depends upon other stuff, like the root cause/s of the manifestation-

And worse, those who invalidated the loudest have mostly declared at one point or another, that their son or daughter in law is definitely a Narcissist...

I’ve notice this a lot. their Experience and their time speaking to other people have convinced them of this, however to say that a parent is a narcissist requires that parent going directly to therapy otherwise it’s just not true

I totally understand Holyhannah

rosecarmel I'm a day dreamer too. Its gotten me into trouble once or twice when people thought I was staring at them when I wasn't aware they existed.

I agree it's often a judgement on themselves they are projecting onto you. I don't stare AT people and don't become angry if they seem to stare at me, I smile and if they don't react I realise they don't see me at all

::full disclosure::

I've had similar happen to me- I can observe the sky, clouds, birds, insects in the garden, anything happening in the yard for extended periods-

One neighbor asked another neighbor, " Why does she just sit there and stare? "

Why did the one neighbor tell me the other neighbor said that? ?

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- It's much like the earlier part of the conversation about whether or not my 'mom' could be diagnosed as a Narcissist because of my MHI's and the answer was/is "yes".

Then the cries of, "Well that can only be diagnosed by a Doctor and a lot of time etc..." like MY TIME in therapy had no relevance to a potential diagnosis in absentia...

And worse, those who invalidated the loudest have mostly declared at one point or another, that their son or daughter in law is definitely a Narcissist...

This is why I get confused. Two sets of rules/double standards. My opening up about my personal medical issues that, while I accept/embrace my crazy, who wants to be known as the Crazy Jedi?

As my husband likes to say, "Yup. She's crazy but harmless..."

"" What on earth is that woman doing? ""

I just today finished Unsheltered by Barbara Kingsolver- Although a work of fiction, there is a character in it that is real- Her name is Mary Treat- She was a naturalist who corresponded with Darwin-

In the book, her character lays in the grass for hours, barely moving a muscle- The frustrated, bitter widow that lives across the street watches her out of her window, complaining about Mary to her daughter-

Come to find out later on in the story, Mary was observing either ants or spiders -- nature-

The widow didn't see herself staring out of her own window, for hours, while Mary peacefully observed nature, aware she was being watched-

rosecarmel -- It's much like the earlier part of the conversation about whether or not my 'mom' could be diagnosed as a Narcissist because of my MHI's and the answer was/is "yes".

Then the cries of, "Well that can only be diagnosed by a Doctor and a lot of time etc..." like MY TIME in therapy had no relevance to a potential diagnosis in absentia...

And worse, those who invalidated the loudest have mostly declared at one point or another, that their son or daughter in law is definitely a Narcissist...

This is why I get confused. Two sets of rules/double standards. My opening up about my personal medical issues that, while I accept/embrace my crazy, who wants to be known as the Crazy Jedi?

As my husband likes to say, "Yup. She's crazy but harmless..."

rosecarmel - Absolutely, I agree that honesty and sensitivity, as well as kindness, are paramount in successful relationships.

PetitFromage

rosecarmel - I agree that you need to validate people's views, as it is their genuine response to a situation, before you can enter into a meaningful dialogue. Otherwise, as you rightly point out, the person will become defensive and then any effort at communication is doomed to failure.

I also agree with you that sometimes we may need to settle for something which is less than we would have wished for, but is the best which can be achieved - like making the best dish you can with the ingredients available. If you cannot change a situation, then the next best thing is to change your reaction to it. Otherwise, it just takes up too much head space and causes damage to our mental health as well as impacting on our other relationships.

A person can validate what others think they see but not validate that what they think they see is true- That's the sticking, point- Because when refused, there's defensiveness-

Sometimes what others say results in discomfort- The severity of it dependent upon comfort being expected,
even when causing discomfort wasn't intended- Although, sometimes it clearly is-

What isn't healthy is expecting what others say to always provide comfort and expecting them not to say what causes discomfort while at the same time causing discomfort to others with what they themselves say-

HolyHannah

Dysfunctional thinkers always see things from their perspective and rarely think past 'it'...

If a cow doesn't have a practical use - for food, milk, trade or sale/money? Why would anyone want/need a cow?

You can't want something to exist/have a life if it doesn't have a purpose for BEING. Does a vegan just want a cow to be so it can 'be' a cow? Or does the cow being alive and the Vegan not eating 'it' make the Vegan better in some way versus the person that IS okay with eating the cow...

Eat or don't eat meat is a personal choice- I respect both- I have issues with one or the other being "better"- Agriculture impacts the planet- Eat that first- Then we can talk- Otherwise, the discussion of not eating meat frequently bypasses damage done- They say they are more conscious yet don't want to talk about damaged caused by the growing of their food choices- Meh ..

Starblaze -- As I said, there is a large gap between asking to not be invalidated and demanding to be validated.

I really can't follow some leaps in 'logic'...

I don't think anyone would ever be expected to validate what they know is a lie.

I don't think anyone would be expected to validate what they think is a lie.

I don't think anyone is expected to validate anything, they can ignore it if they wish.

But to invalidate someone when you don't know or cannot be sure it isn't the truth is thoughtless and unkind

To constantly continue to invalidate someone else's truth that you don't know or can't be sure is a lie, is just plain bullying.

Validating a lie causes damage to people by enabling them to behave badly and get away with it which harms both of you.

In my opinion anyway

rosecarmel - I agree that you need to validate people's views, as it is their genuine response to a situation, before you can enter into a meaningful dialogue. Otherwise, as you rightly point out, the person will become defensive and then any effort at communication is doomed to failure.

I also agree with you that sometimes we may need to settle for something which is less than we would have wished for, but is the best which can be achieved - like making the best dish you can with the ingredients available. If you cannot change a situation, then the next best thing is to change your reaction to it. Otherwise, it just takes up too much head space and causes damage to our mental health as well as impacting on our other relationships.

Dysfunctional thinkers always see things from their perspective and rarely think past 'it'...

If a cow doesn't have a practical use - for food, milk, trade or sale/money? Why would anyone want/need a cow?

You can't want something to exist/have a life if it doesn't have a purpose for BEING. Does a vegan just want a cow to be so it can 'be' a cow? Or does the cow being alive and the Vegan not eating 'it' make the Vegan better in some way versus the person that IS okay with eating the cow...

rosecarmel -- I love that... "Oh look at all the pretty cows in that field... We can't eat meat or drink their milk... We are abusing those poor animals..."

Me a realist/Round Earther -- "So farmers are supposed to keep those cows as pets? Who is going to pay for that and for what reason should we keep/breed/maintain these animals?"