Your money or your grandsons

And he’s your son? I have three and wouldn’t hold up to that by any of them don’t do it. Get some advice legal I mean.

Be strong and refuse . I can see even if you did this then what's the guarantee you would see them anyway if your son is prepared to do this .Does his wife know / understand? Your grandsons obviously will grow up then you have every right to contact them . You need your home and I can't understand why a son could try to do this . Think about an hour of legal advice?

I agree with you HolyHannah. There is a poster or two who always seem to default to it being the AC's fault (or vice versa) and pats on the back doesn't help to heal anything. I never assume fault as it could be either or both. For the most part, unless there is something glaringly obvious, we are unlikely to really know the real truth behind most posts where there is a relationship problem.

What might seem to be projecting is really just people offering something from their own experience as food for thought. I have always stated explicitly when I am doing that since I'm offering the perspective from my experience. I assume posters are intelligent enough to discard it if it doesn't apply to them. Likewise, I am happy for posters to offer me their experiences as it might relate to mine (or not). I can consider it and assign it the appropriate place in terms of personal relevance.

I have no doubt my MIL could come here and post something that would make everyone very sympathetic to her. Pats on the back wouldn't help. If there was any hope of healing the situation and having her involved with our family and the grandchildren, she needs to consider that maybe there are things she needs to change. Only then might she get the outcome she is hoping for. The only place she is likely to get that kind of feedback is from an outsider who can take a fresh look at a situation they are not emotionally involved in. Wouldn't healing that be the ideal outcome rather than her sitting there, disconnected, but feeling affirmed in her rightness?

I agree that it is important to ask questions. How they are asked is the key to getting helpful information!

The estrangement threads are places where it's all too easy to respond to posters from the position of one's own experiences. Sometimes that can be helpful in validating
someone's feelings in response to an experience
Smileless is right to say it isn't helpful or supportive to judge and condemn others. Unfortunately, this seems to happen too often on the estrangement threads.
tickingbird, it's good to see you posting here. I don't disagree with you put simply, some people are selfish or greedy. I believe therapy can help in those situations, even selfish and greedy people can change but they have to want to and make a real commitment to do so. Therapy can definitely help the people hurt by abusive individuals/parents. It has be therapy offered by an experienced, well trained, well supervised therapist. There are some people calling themselves therapists who are non of those things.

Well said tickingbird.

It's important to ask questions. The more information that's given by a poster, the easier it is for others to give advice and that more often than not together with support, is what those who post about a relationship are looking for.

Support isn't just about agreement, encouraging someone to consider where they have and are doing something wrong is also supportive.

Projecting ones own experiences onto the answers is neither helpful or supportive, nor is the judgement and condemnation of some posters that we see all too often, especially on the estrangement threads.

HolyHannah

Sometimes it’s just as described. No need for therapy. Some people are just selfish, greedy and/or manipulative. The son is probably just that and the OP would have liked advice. No more, no less.

PetitFromage -- Thank you. "It is easy to become locked into negative thought patterns, that can be difficult to break, which is where therapy can be helpful." -- I totally agree.

Good post Hannah. As you say, many family problems arise from poor communication or from an inability to see another perspective on the situation. It is easy to become locked into negative thought patterns, that can be difficult to break, which is where therapy can be helpful.

tickingbird -- "The OP sounds in possession of her faculties and has asked for advice not interrogation and the usual invented scenarios. Accept what she’s saying and advise accordingly or move on." -- To "advise accordingly" it is best to look at the sequence of events.

I have never said OP is abusive/an abuser in any way. When there are family relationship issues, as in OP's case, I keep the 4 following scenarios in mind:

1 -- No one is abusive in the relationship and the family is suffering from unhealthy communication styles... In other words, "normal" family 'stuff'.

2 -- Total 'draw' -- Both parties are abusive.

3/4 -- Parent is being abused 100%/'Child' is being abused 100%

In order to mend broken relationships everyone has to see all those possibilities EXIST and accept the "other sides" perspective even if it is counter to THEIR belief/perspective. Is one party lashing out/purposefully hurting the 'other party' or is the person being accused of "acting out" really just REacting to something? Without both 'sides' keeping that 'on the table' then there's no "middle ground" to be found.

That's why I tend to ask "a lot of questions". I don't want to give advice based on ambiguous details/lack of clarity or assumptions of the "whole picture". Unfortunately when you only have one party 'talking to you' it becomes more important to understand their thinking/beliefs because it can help to clarify which of the 4 scenarios/possibilities is potentially the correct one.

My advice varies depending on which subset I think is going on. In OP's case I don't know... That's why I ask questions.

..JGran certainly does come across as being in full possession of her faculties as you say tickingbird.

For me, this thread is about a P being abused by her son and her GC being abused by their father in his desire to use them in order to emotionally blackmail his mother into giving him what he wants.

The parental abuse that is evident here is not from the OP toward her son, but her son using his children.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say Starblaze? Are you saying that the OP is/was abusive to her son?

Sometimes it's good to read things carefully before reacting because they don't say what you assume.

In non abusive relationships the truth is in the middle

In relationships where one is abusive the reality is not in the middle, its reality and lies

In relationships where both are abusive... Who knows where the truth is, that would need all the therapists to unravel and possibly a small deity.

There's no "truth in the middle" to be found when a parent abuses a child.

I'm sure you're right HolyHannah, but this particular thread that jGran started isn't about child abuse; it's about her situation and problems and they come from a totally different place than child abuse. It's important not to project ones own problems and their resolutions onto another because it doesn't help anyone, least of all the OP.

I read them in astonishment too sometimes tickingbird

Its almost as if there are sides rather than individuals

I don’t normally comment on these threads just read them in astonishment. Some of the posts are quite clearly from armchair barristers who like to fantasise they’re cross examining a witness in court. Others are from those with an agenda and an imagined Masters Degree in the evils of EP’s and EGP’s and how evil they are and how the poor EAC always have a valid reason for being absolute swines.

The OP sounds in possession of her faculties and has asked for advice not interrogation and the usual invented scenarios. Accept what she’s saying and advise accordingly or move on.

It doesn't help anyone to have anyone project their own experience on to them when it happens..

I'm careful not to assume that is the case though

We have JGran's word for it HolyHannah. It doesn't help her or anyone else posting on the support threads for that matter, for those who have very sadly been abused by their parent(s) to project their own experiences onto others.

This point keeps being made but unfortunately continues to be ignored.

Smileless -- "I agree with that as I'm sure we all do but in this particular case parental abuse isn't the issue because there hasn't been any." -- Neither of us has any way of knowing that.

There's no truth in the middle to be found when a parent abuses a child.

I agree with that as I'm sure we all do but in this particular case parental abuse isn't the issue because there hasn't been any.

I think you're right JGran if you force the issue as to why he's estranged you, you could push him further away.

There's nothing worse than not knowing why this happens, what they're thinking and what their reasons are. It's enough to drive you insane if you let it.

JGran -- "I feel that I have been very patient waiting for an answer." -- Just because you feel/believe something doesn't mean that the recipient (the person on 'the other end'/your son) agrees.

LOTS of people say, "I'm not doing xxxx..." while doing exactly what they SAY they are NOT "doing" and vice-versa.

Chewbacca -- "But as we only have 1, that's the one we look at." -- That might be 'the one' YOU look at but I try to look at every situation from both angles because that's how I go about finding "the truth in the middle".

And I totally disagree with -- "As I've said before, there are usually 2 truths and somewhere in the middle is the real truth."... As a victim of childhood Narcissistic abuse I can assure you that in my experiences there's reality and then there's the 'truth'/version my 'mom' believed and THAT was the "real" reality because SHE "said so".

My reality -- My 'mom' was a child abuser.

My 'mom's reality -- "I did nothing 'wrong'."

There's no "truth in the middle" to be found when a parent abuses a child.

Hi Gran I've asked you a few questions, wondering if you have missed them? I've gotten confused about what happened in what order.

Did you manage to find some support? If the helpline I posted isn't for your area I could look for something closer.

HolyHannah, While I appreciate the Devil's Advocate approach here, I can say that I am not an abusive parent. An indulgent one, but not abusive. The broken promises are on my son's end, not mine. As I've said, he has refused to tell me what his issue is. I've been asking since last September 3. I feel that I have been very patient waiting for an answer. I have asked a number of ways and always walk on eggshells in my approach so as not to cause more distance. I'm quite sure that if I push too hard, he will recoil further.

As to the question of the 17 year old driving...no, he is not allowed to have a car or his license yet. I keep hoping.