Your money or your grandsons

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from

I agree. I also think that the most helpful "challenge"/Feedback when appropriate is to ask questions for the OP to consider within their context and where they are at in the problem, and in their experiences. Appropriate phraseology that is direct and honest but not unkind/aggressive sounding can enable someone to open their minds to a different perspective on their problem.

Absolutely agree with you OceanMama; the whole point of a poster asking for advice is to get different points of views and perspectives. I do often wonder what "the other side" would say if they were given a voice here! As I've said before, there are usually 2 truths and somewhere in the middle is the real truth. But as we only have 1, that's the one we look at.

Chewbacca

^When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person^ asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

OceanMama you've summed it up perfectly here. Thank you.

I don't think that precludes challenging the OP with ideas or suggestions, especially when they say they are looking to understand and heal a situation rather than just after support exclusively. Sometimes it's harder to think of other things when we're caught up in the situation so personally, so an outsiders pov (for those who have solicited ideas) can be helpful.

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

OceanMama you've summed it up perfectly here. Thank you.

Well said Iam64.

JGran is the poster asking for support here. My understanding is the Estrangement threads are aimed at supporting people. It's good to try and broaden the initial OP by getting a clearer understanding of the background and history here. Part of that is developing an understanding of the personalities, the life long relationships between parents and children. As others have said, we have one side of the history here. Just as we have one side of the individual histories shared in an attempt to elicit sympathy for the son in this situation.

As you say OceanMama JGran like everyone has the right to decide who inherits from her.

I don't see evidence of conditional love from the OP, but plenty of evidence of conditions being placed on the relationship by her son.

IMO it's wrong to start making assumptions and filling in the 'blanks' by saying "perhaps the mom is in the habit of ........" and "perhaps mom has said.........", because we only have one side of the story.

The final paragraph of your post is spot on OceanMama. Our point of view can understandably, be coloured by our own experiences, but that shouldn't result in those experiences being projected onto someone else's.

If we want to help others, we should offer advice and opinions on what we are told. Referring to our personal experiences can be useful but projecting those, especially if there's been experience of abuse, can result in a poster not only feeling that they're not being believed but in some cases, that they are being or have been abusive.

I'm often asked on gransnet to consider my mums feelings/perspective or asked questions about my motives/thinking.

I actually don't mind. I think it is important I do do that.

I don't agree when people tell me my choice to estrange is wrong/ cruel/using my children as weapons and I will generally explain why. But that wasn't always the case.

One of the possibilities I had to consider was that there was something wrong with me. That was hard because my mum always told me there was something wrong with me from as young as I can remember.

Its right and fair that if I am to consider there is something wrong with my mum, I also look at myself.

So I did, and got help and found out that I am actually the more emotionally healthy one. I didn't start that process from an unbiased position either, I started it from "I think the problem is me".

So my opinion is that it is always healthy and productive to consider that perhaps things aren't as we thought, we aren't as healthy as we could be and seeking help to figure out what went wrong in the relationship and what our part is in that is the right thing for everyone no matter what answers we then find after honest evaluation.

I don't disagree with HolyHannah that there is a possibility of conditional love going on here. Just a possibility, just as the possibility is also that the issue with with the son or even that there is contribution from both sides.

I know someone who has shown definite conditional love to their son. "If you live the way we want you do or do things my way, then we are going to withdraw until you comply." Yet, if you heard it from their parents, I think they would probably cry about how much she has done for her son and how she is being shut out. On the other hand, the son is also not asking for anything and doesn't care if he is disinherited. He'll find out when they die and he doesn't plan to go to their funeral. If he is, the man has told me that it will just confirm to him that he was right not to chase his mother.

There are always two sides to every story but it is true that JGran has the right to choose what to do with her assets when she dies.

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

I just love that so many are quick to keep saying son is 'wrong' and insulting him.

A lot of people tout the line that there are "two sides to every story" and yet the narrative is that son is being (add list of insults) without considering any alternatives... His "side" of 'the story'.

Perhaps the mom is in the habit of making promises and not keeping them...

Perhaps mom has said in the past, "If you do... then I'll give you..." and when the child has done what the parent needed/wanted a new hurdle/bar to receive 'the thing' was added.

Abusive parents DO 'that sort of thing' and when the AC finally gets tired of trying to please/pass/jump over bars? They get tired and often walk away.

My own 'mom' had a tendency toward the 'moving goal posts' and at a certain point the parent/abuser can play "that card" one time too many and their AC says, "Enough." and walks away.

At that point, the AC is tired of playing 'the game' because there's literally NOTHING "in it" for Them. There's no love to be had, respect as an autonomous mature adult to be given or a hope for the situation/relationship to improve. The AC has learned "their place" and 'that place' is as a perpetual "lesser" to their 'parent' so they walk away...

And then as the final chant -- "Write that ungrateful child out of your will/estate!!! They don't deserve ANYTHING."

Abused children all know that... So yes... Will/give your assets to your grand-children (by-pass their parents), because they "deserve"/are "better" in Your eyes then their parents (Your child) and bonus 'points' if you can also Will part of your assets to 'less' genetically related relatives like nieces/nephews...

I grew up in an environment like THAT. So even IF my granny had played "that game" and gave the bulk of the estate to Me? I would have done the right thing after her death and distributed the estate equally.

Abusers and enablers would say, "Well... Those were Her wishes/plan for Her estate. Who are YOU to go against that???" Me -- "Someone who refuses to perpetuate family dysfunction by taking more then a fair share because the person who 'willed' this shouldn't have power to create more chaos after they die."

Unfortunately Golden Children/enablers/abusers will happily accept those unequitable "gifts" and remind the Scapegoat -- "You don't deserve ANYTHING."

I hope that jGran has sought proper legal advice and is knows which direction she needs follow to put some space between her and her manipulative offspring. It would be good if she could come back at some point and update us.

"you should find a way to get on with your mum" it's awful isn't it, the things that some people say. Like 'life's too short' and 'if you want to see your son and GC you have to get on with your d.i.l.'. None of them take into account how bad that person they think you should get on with, may be.

If a decision had been made for your mum to see your children, it's a decision that would have been made by the courts and not that one policeman, as it's what is in the best interests of the children that takes precedent.

For your mum to have had any chance of success, she'd have had to prove there was an existing meaningful relationship in place with the children before you estranged, so it seems highly unlikely she'd have been successful in obtaining a contact order.

I can now see from your post that your reference to being stalked and harassed applied to your mother and her friends.

Iam64

I'm in the UK. That's why I told him he was wrong. I spoke to 2 very lovely people on the phone before I went in, they were so kind and sympathetic. They told me I had a harassment case and to take the evidence in. He was AWFUL. Obviously no training at all on domestic abuse. Didn't even know the related laws. Maybe he had a personal story of his own.

When it came down to it I was able to find ways to protect myself physically where possible and emotionally where not.

So many victims out there are not able to protect themselves and the thought that people like him are out there not particularly caring or fulfilling their job roles is soul destroying when there are so many people in much more dangerous/precarious situations.

If we had grandparents rights here and my children had all been too young to make their own decisions when I estranged (apart from my little late baby who doesn't know them at all) people like that police officer could have put my children in the hands of an abuser.

Because estranged children are not believed far more often than they are. Every single time it comes up to anyone new, will they judge me? Do they believe me? Do they want to believe me? Would they rather look for justification why I might be the bad one because if you push me hard enough, I will defend myself and give them something to use. Mothers are all wonderful in the eyes of general society, to think otherwise is too hard. Maybe one or two bad mums, you know, the ones who actually end their children's lives, that's it. Can't allow for more.

I have people in the surrounding area that spy on me for my mum. I can't even describe to you what that feels like. Not being able to exist without wondering if you are being watched. Getting letters from a woman who should not know the information she knows. Having certain people start conversations knowing that you can't just chat or relax because they're friends with your mum.

It's always my word against hers. Always has been. I have evidence of harassment, not evidence of abuse. How does anyone ever prove they have been torn apart emotionally by the person they loved the most? The person who should love them the most? Especially when that person presents a fake exterior to the world so perfect, they love her.... Because my mum doesn't have "friends" anymore, she has many many aqauntances that she works to impress. She learned a long time that people she let too close, eventually saw the real her and walked away.

Sometimes it's my word against hers to people who never met her.

I can go to a group for just EAC and have a thousand comments repeating a similar story back to me or a much worse story following the same patterns. Every one of them questioning themselves and afraid they might be crazy because someone/anyone just didn't believe them. Because the only people who accept their stories with no judgement seem to be other abuse victims and the other end of the scale, people who had real unconditional love growing up who are genuinely horrified by the contrast.

The other thing the police office said?

“you should find a way to get on with your mum"

Its incredible to me lately how often I have heard a variation of

"you are bad for refusing to talk to people who harm your well being"

The world is a strange place sometimes but I have hope it will get better.

“Apparently people can stalk/harass others online to their hearts content... I'm not sure he was correct but if he is, that's an avenue that needs addressing here.“ .
Who is being stalked and harassed here?

"Difficult but not impossible" quite true Iam. Where there's a will there's a way and it's the children who should be the most important people here not the adults, which is why the Children Act states that it is a child's right to maintain existing, loving relationships.

Starblaze, sorry, I don't know if you're in the UK or US. I don't know much about US law but here in the UK, grandparents don't have rights. The Children Act is clear, children have right to maintain existing, loving relationships. As you have said in previous posts, if the relationship between parents and grandparents has broken down, its difficult for contact between the grandchildren and grandparents to take place.

Difficult but not impossible. Its a bit like separated parents, in that if the adults are able to set their anger/distress aside and focus on the best interests of the children, positive relationships can continue between children and grandparents.
It goes without saying, that if the grandparents abuse of their now adult child is the root of the conflict, that puts a completely different light on things.

I think a lot depends on the nature of the abuse and for some, it's hard to recognise that an adult is being abused for example by their AC, if they're being given an ultimatum that unless their P gives them what they want, they wont be able to see their GC.

Maybe because they'll think 'well just say no' and refuse to give in to emotional blackmail, but that's a lot easier said than done if you think you'll never see your AC and GC again.

As for stalking and harassing people online to their hearts content, online makes it so much easier for those who want to do so. Cyber bullying is becoming real problem with at times tragic consequences.

UK seems to be leading the way in protecting people from abusive people.

Let's hope that sticks because it is very hard to convince others that family can be abusive and while younger people seem to accept that more often, you can come up against some real brick walls.

I had a bad experience when I tried to report harassment to the police and was told "grandparents have rights" by an older policeman. Completely biased and unhelpful, not to mention factually incorrect here. I informed him that actually, children have rights and I have protected my children and their right to be free from harm.

Apparently people can stalk/harass others online to their hearts content... I'm not sure he was correct but if he is, that's an avenue that needs addressing here.

You're right Lavazza1st JGran's situation is coercive control which as you say here in the UK is against the law but I don't know if that specifically applies to America.

That said there must be laws to protect parents from their abusive children.

I'm so sorry. What a complete shit Isn't that Coercive Control? It's against the law if it is. Just might be worth saying that... Conniving little wotsit!

And yet, youre still giving gifts. At this time you need support and kindness, but you're looking out for him and sorry to say it,p but please stop giving. Its rewarding bad behaviour. I know its in your nature to give ( and I am the same) but recently I pulled back and feel that if we continue to be kind and giving in the face of unkindness and hostility, they will not respect us.

Im so sorry for the cancer battle you're going through, but you need to be a little selfish and stop giving. There's a saying - "stop rowing the boat and see if it still goes along!" It's painful to take stock, but if they are treating you like you don't matter, step back. You DO matter.

My son treated me in the worst ways, financially using me. It's painful, I know - and the isolation is bad too. But keeping giving and having a one way relationship is also bad for you.

All 7 points you have made have provided good feed back especially as you are a new poster and the points raised give an overview of the initial impression that GN can give JGran. Like welbeck I also agree with the points you have raised.

I couldn't agree more, that the quickest way to lose a resource that may be needed is to create a toxic environment.

You've spent a considerable amount of time giving a detailed account of not just your situation as it stands at the moment, but also of what's happened to bring you to this point.

Your son is unaware that he has been disinherited, so your decision to do so has nothing to do with his being estranged from you for a year and now using contact with his children, as a means to get what he wants.

It's not an easy decision to disinherit one's own child, but sometimes difficult decisions have to be made in case current circumstances don't change, no matter how much we wish they would.

Hoping all goes well if your son visits this week.

Jgran

In the nicest possible way...

You are upset that he won't have a relationship with you unless he gets his inheritance (house)

You say he will never get any inheritance unless he has a relationship with you.

Why did you disinherit him?

Is it possible that him knowing you disinherited somehow is the reason he has stopped having a relationship with you including his children?

How he is working and supporting himself is his problem not yours though.

Good luck Jgran. Be prepared for your gesture not to to be taken in the spirit intended.

thanks for updating us.
does yr 17 year old GS drive to school.
just wondered if there is any way you could just happen to be passing at going home time...
or would that be too risky ?
by the way, i agree with yr comments re the use of the site.
all the best.