Your money or your grandsons

Pity we can't edit posts. To be more clear, it sounds like a 'your finance it, I manage it, we're contributing equally, just in different ways' kind of arrangement.

I take it there was no formal contract spelling out the arrangement and expectations?

So your last post gives me the impression that your son was and reasonably expected to be an equal partner in your property ventures. But you talk about them as your properties. Maybe I'm misinterpreting or maybe this is starting to get somewhere. Could your son feel like he was equal but then you pushed him out and didn't give him due compensation? Hence he demanded the particular property to bridge that gap. And maybe said you couldn't see your grandsons because he wanted to protect them from what he sees as how he was treated?

Sorry if I'm off base, just trying to see through your son's eyes based on what you are giving us.

Ok, more clarification. My son originally was hired to work for the manufacturing job. He decided he hated it and I was 50 and ready to retire. So, we both had been talking about doing the flipping full time. I could finance it and he would be the on site manager dealing with the sub trades since I've never liked that part and he loves it. I like the paperwork and the design part...ok...and the shopping part but we both did that part. I started flipping way early after graduating. I had also worked for some successful RE people (Thank God, not Trump, but one of his former friends). So, I sold the shop and equipment and we started our first flip not long after that. He was loving it and we were a few months into the one when I noticed I just struggled to do anything. This eventually led to my diagnosis. Yes, scary for both of us. The worst thing for my eldest grandson is that I was diagnosed three days before his biological father's mother died from cancer. They were very close and she was a very loving and kind woman from the short time that I knew her. So, we all tried to make sure that he was aware that I was fighting and not going to just let it take me. This past January he was supposed to be starting piano lessons at my house. He was really looking forward to it, but they won't allow him to come over. We have a good relationship. We like a lot of the same things and I miss him terribly.

i have thought of a possible reason for the sudden change in behaviour, by the "kids" ! ,
but it is unpleasant, and may be way off the mark.
anyway, i wish you well OP.
some people on here are giving you a hard time, and making assertions that are meant to be logical, but glaringly are not. they are like saying, a catholic priest cannot have sexually abused a child because it states clearly in the catechism that is not allowed, and every priest knows his catechism, therefore you are lying to say that happened, or else you misheard/ it is misreported, because it is against the tenets of his religion.
never mind.
i had assumed you and your son were older, but now seeing that you married very young, maybe your son is almost 40 ?
await next instalment eagerly.
all the best.

Jgran, I'm not looking to apportion blame to either you or your son. I do try to be objective. :-) Like you said, you've made mistakes, but what parent hasn't?

You've introduced a couple of new elements in your last post. First, you've hinted at what could possibly be a divisive influence from your son's father. That could be pertinent.

Also, from what you are describing, your son has had a lot of loss, pain and stressors to deal with himself. I know that is not what you wanted for your son. Don't we all want our children to have things easier than we did? I know I always wanted that for my children but I have since learned, we can't protect them from life. Stuff happens. Maybe he just can't handle anymore right now and is taking care of himself emotionally and mentally?

None of that explains the apparently sudden demand for the house, but your son definitely has his own difficult story here.

We all make mistakes JGran. It isn't about apportioning blame it's about trying to understand how things can change so dramatically and in some cases, so tragically.

Well, part of the reason I came on this forum is to figure it out. I believe that we all have our perspective. I have asked him to explain his and he has refused to date. So, here I am trying to figure it out. While I have to display my life to strangers, but who else could be less personally involved in my life but you all? So, while some of you may want it to be his fault and some will want it to be my fault, I'm going with I think we've both made mistakes. His view I can't yet see. That is kind of what you guys are here for...just to be honest. That is why I've stated...ask away....I have no reason to lie as I want to resolve this or I wouldn't be here. I'm not trying to get sympathy or sound like some kind of hero here. I'm really trying to see what I don't see....yet. As a mother, sure I made a mistake here or there, but he always said that I was a really good parent, until his father came back into his life...then after a while his attitude changed. In the beginning, he said that he was thankful he didn't get raised in that household. Apparently, the second wife had addiction issues and the second son was addicted by the age of 12. Sadly, he died of a drug overdose a few months after my son's wedding. He was the best man. The saddest part of that was that his original best man died the same month one year earlier due to alcohol and scuba diving not being a healthy combination. My baby sister didn't make it to the wedding because she ended up in the emergency room due to a brain tumor. Then just before his brother died my 6 year old niece ended up in the ER also with a brain tumor.

To say you've had a difficult and taxing life would be an understatement JGran. I'm glad that you talked about your past with your mum before she died.

As has already been discussed your cancer, the treatment, your son losing his GF with Alzheimer's, his father being diagnosed with Alzheimer's and your son's understandable fear that he will also contract this must have contributed to him feeling unable to cope so he 'walked away'; making that 180 degree turn that's been mentioned.

This could also account for the estrangement, him not being able to cope with it all so severing contact. What doesn't make any sense to me though, or you I'm sure, is a year after estranging you, making contact to say if you don't do what he wants you'll never see your GC again.

So your son was hired for your manufacturing company, not as a caregiver.
That's important.

What was this business disagreement that took place?

OK
OK, so may or may not be relevant, but I grew up with an alcoholic mother who was abusive and an elder sister that was also abusive. Both physically abusive to the point that I would sometimes not be allowed to go to school because of marks. The worst those days was bloody welts on my back. My sister used to just smack me around but I was pretty tiny back in those days and never really was one for fighting back until I had my little guy to fight for.

When I was 15 my elder sister became pregnant and in my mother's logic I was next so she kicked her out and she made arrangements for me to marry the boy next door. We'd known each other since I was 7 and while I didn't even think that way he did and since he was 19, he figured everything else out with my mom. My step dad told me straight up that he had no power to help me. He and my mom were having problems. So, within a couple of months I was married and moving to Canada. I struggle to forgive my mom at first and am thankful that we discussed everything before she died.

Tell me when you get bored or ask if you have questions.

OceanMama -- What a perfect reply.

New to this forum, so it's been a bit challenging following what everyone is asking or saying, but figuring it out. I posted very late at night and actually fell asleep. Then took me a minute to figure out how to get back to this specific feed.

As to my Ex....yes, he did abandon us when my son was a baby. No money, and no home, but we were safer sleeping on the sofa of a friend from high school. He came back in and our only negative with one another is that he related a cruel situation that he perpetrated toward me to my son and sadly still thought it was funny. Trying to humiliate me to my son. My son did start to do things then as well, to me and to others. Toxic humor. It's just not funny. I did tell him (the ex) that I did not appreciate it and he had nothing to gain from it. The courts allowed him supervised visitation but he chose not to be in his son's life. I gave him every opportunity for seven years. For the last three he never saw him. I gave up trying.

As to the beginning, well you guys are asking for a book since I really don't know exactly where the beginning is. I'm honestly not sure exactly where we went wildly off track.

My son and I were always very close. The first sign of any sort of struggle was originally caused when he started drinking as a teen. We discussed it and for the most part he stopped. Then he started dating and eventually living with a girl that was into drugs and alcohol, but thankfully after a few years they split. When he dated her, she refused to allow him around me unless she was there. Didn't bother me. I just liked to have our dinner together and it was nice to see him happy....until he wasn't. I knew when he asked to join me for breakfast alone. That was gosh around 15 years ago. She apparently couldn't stand me, but honestly she didn't like anyone in his life and blocked many of us.

That is roughly about the time that I also offered him a job to work at my manufacturing company. He said no, he liked what he was doing at the time. Our relationship was pretty much the same then. Dinner every couple of weeks. Then I just babysat his dog. No wife no kids yet.

As time went by I did notice that he was drinking quite a bit again. I did not talk to him about it until he and a friend were arrested for being drunk and disorderly in public. After a night's rest in jail I took them to my beach house to sleep it off and discussed it in the morning. We did and he went to AA. No, I did not follow up or push. I thought the calming environment would help. It seemed better, but I do know that he continued to drink. I don't know how much or how often as we lived about 2 hours from one another so every visit was fairly planned and given that I rarely drink, he really doesn't drink with me.

A few years go by and he came to me and said that he was interested in the job if the offer was still open. It was and so I hired him. I made it abundantly clear that the company could not afford to pay him the same as his prior job as he was coming in at the entry level to learn my business.

We discussed the fact that it would be very hard to work for me as his boss because he was used to being the boss at his job. Not his business, but that location was his responsibility. The challenges of that situation reared their ugly head before very long...

One of my employees made a fairly big mistake. I discussed this with the employee and he became upset and said that he was quitting. I said, ok and went back to my office. My son came stomping into my office and went off on me. He told me I should go beg for the man to come back. I told him that I would not. If he didn't want to work here, no one had chains on their ankles.

More on the next post. I need a break here. See? Long story.

Hithere

OP
Something had to happen between them being there for you when you were in treatment and then going to nothing.
Very rarely a 180 is done just because.

I agree with this.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, is it possible your son felt that you were expecting too much of him and felt taken advantage of? It might not seem like a lot to you but you did have a lot going on at the time you were so weak with house renovations and all. Feeding the chickens is small, but it also involves travel time to get there each day or two, unless he lives two minutes away. Pottering in your yard once a week might not seem much time, but to a man with a wife and children at home and presumably a job, it is quite a chunk out of the week. Maybe this added a lot more pressure to his life than you are aware of and he needed to step away?

If you like, I'll interject personal stuff, and state that even that much would be very challenging to me if my parent needed that due to circumstances in my own life. I carry a lot already and, as much as I would be willing to help, I would have to be careful how much I gave. I might even have to step back and ask you to find someone else to feed the chickens if it became too much. Not because I want to do that, because I need to.

That's not to say that your son is not wrong or even cruel by threatening to keep GC away, but it does feel like there was a pivot point and I don't think it's been identified what drove that. I think that could be critical information in helping identify what might start to heal your relationship.

OP
Something had to happen between them being there for you when you were in treatment and then going to nothing.
Very rarely a 180 is done just because.

HiThere, I feel like you seem to be putting your personal issues in and confusing them somehow with mine. I can guarantee I hate micromanaging at home and work. I don't like to repeat myself, so I rarely do. Somehow you may have missed the Alzheimer aspect of the situation, so perhaps you have never dealt with anyone with brain injury issues. My ex husband with his which are genetic. My son dealing with his (I suspect due to his signs) and mine memory issues due to chemo. Cancer is super scary on my side of the family and we've had most die at the age of 53 (coincidence) and that was my age at diagnosis. If you know anything about it, Stage 3 and Grade 3 are super scary.

JGran

Unfortunately, MrsWarren, you seem to be looking for things that are not there or interjecting your personal experience, I'm not sure. I never said that He walked because of me cutting him off...I believe you were the first to make that statement and another individual jumped in as though you were aware of my personal situation. The fact that the majority of parents call their children by birth and marriage their kids is just as benign as my saying to a group of women at my home, "Would you guys like some sugar with your tea?" I don't mean that I believe my friends are men. Its just a broad term. He's my kid....by marriage...she is too. Just like I'm Mom, Grandma/pa (the little one often refers to me this way since I was bald).

Maybe you’ve mistaken me for another poster because I don’t recall ever saying that your son walked away because you cut him off.

Please don’t assume that I’m interjecting my own personal experience. I’m sure that’s something you’ve read here - I’ve read it here too. But I’m not an EAC or an EP.

I take your point re “kids” - I’ve just realised that you are American and perhaps that is a term commonly used there. I am in the U.K. and we do not refer to adults in that way.

From your posts, I have tried to paint a picture of your situation as best I can. If I’ve got something wrong, then I’m sure you will correct me.

Now, as to the definition of abandonment, well, we may have different opinions as to the specifics. I'd say that going from dinner roughly every other Sunday, me sitting my grandkids roughly once a month and my son coming by at least once a week just to putter in my yard (He enjoyed fussing with the drip system). Then during chemo it was more often while I was not well. He was the one that insisted that he go to the majority of the treatments and his wife insisted on going to some as well. Then nothing. He has stated quite clearly that I can't come over and they are not coming to my home. I moved ten minutes away four years ago because he hated the long drive to my old place. That was one hour. He even helped me find my new house. No, he abandoned me at the job without notice and he abandoned me in our personal life as well. I rarely even get a photo unless a beg for one. He has also abandoned me emotionally. He knows that I have no other family in California. Thankfully, I do have good friends that jumped in to assist me and of course hired help, but it is not the same when you are in the fight for your life and the one person that you have cherished every moment of their life acts like they'd rather you were dead.

Unfortunately, MrsWarren, you seem to be looking for things that are not there or interjecting your personal experience, I'm not sure. I never said that He walked because of me cutting him off...I believe you were the first to make that statement and another individual jumped in as though you were aware of my personal situation. The fact that the majority of parents call their children by birth and marriage their kids is just as benign as my saying to a group of women at my home, "Would you guys like some sugar with your tea?" I don't mean that I believe my friends are men. Its just a broad term. He's my kid....by marriage...she is too. Just like I'm Mom, Grandma/pa (the little one often refers to me this way since I was bald).

I wonder how many parents there out there who looking back don't see there were times when they over indulged their children; quite a few I suspect.

Looking back we did the same. Mr. S. wanted our boys to have the childhood that he had and I wanted their childhood to be better than mine. That doesn't in anyway for us, and probably for many parents, mean that we are not surprised when faced with their sense of entitlement.

A lot of parents refer to their adult children as kids. That doesn't mean they don't see them as adults but they are and always will be our 'kids'/children regardless of how old they are.

From what I've read of JGran's posts, she made the decisions she did because her son estranged her. I can understand why she felt he had abandoned her, despite the extenuating circumstances like Alzheimer's for example, that have already been discussed. She was still in a very vulnerable physical, emotional and mental condition at the time he left her.

Walking away, abandoning or estrangement all of which are a reasonable summary of what has happened here IMO, doesn't negate this son's unacceptable behaviour, having been estranged from his mother for a year, to now tell her if she doesn't do what he wants, she will never see her GS's again.

JGran, I have went back to the beginning of this thread and read through all of your posts.

You have freely admitted to indulging your son, but, given your description of how you have spoiled and subsidised him, I am not sure why you are so surprised at his level of entitlement.

I get it, we all want to give our children a better life than we had ourselves. I understand that, but it is possible to go too far. You seem to be overcompensating.

I don’t think your situation is that black and white though, and there is more going on. Hithere raises some important points and I agree with her when she says “That demand is only the tip of the iceberg.”

This strikes me as a large part of the problem:

The only time I ever stood up to both of the kids, happened long before the estrangement.

They are not kids, they are adults.

You also explained:

He isn't reacting to me cutting him off because I did not until several months after his decision to abandon me. He doesn't even know to what extent he has been removed only that some changes have been made.

I thought you had decided to cut him off because he asked for the house he is living in to be signed over to him, but you now seem to suggest it was because he abandoned you. I don’t think it’s fair to say he abandoned you because he quit his job and for whatever reason, no longer felt able to look after your dogs and chickens, during your treatment. I would use the word “abandon” to describe what his father done to him. Not to him making a decision to no longer work for you.

Well yes that's a good point MrsWarren. I suppose for many of us our lives would be easier if we didn't worry about the feelings of others who don't really deserve it.

That's true Hithere; I wouldn't expect any less either that said, if only it was as easy to adjust our feelings as it can be to adjust our expectations.

Regardless of the small detail of JGran's situation we have a son who having estranged his mother is now telling her she'll never see her GS's again unless she does what he wants. That IMO is the real problem.

I don’t feel the son’s father has any right to be upset at his son forgetting his birthday given that he abandoned him as a child.

Of course we disagree, smileless. I wouldn't expect any less.

If the bday person is upset his/her bday was forgotten by an important person,
1. Talk to that person or
2. Admit your bday is not important for that person and adjust your expectations

If your son will feel bad for forgeting the bday, he will learn one year and will remember not to make the same mistake next year - accountability and personal responsibility for your own actions.

Instead, let's all tiptoe around the real problem and avoid addressing the cause of it and fix it - a dysfunctional response to avoid real or perceived hurt that may happen

Well I disagree Hithere if I didn't remind DS it's his dad's birthday, and if Mr. S. didn't remind him of mine he'd never remember.

It's not about "micromanaging" it's about trying to make sure someone isn't upset about their birthday being forgotten and in our case, our DS not feeling 'bad' because he forgot.

I was just thinking the same JGran; reminding your son when it's his father's birthday is the least of your worries.

We all teach our children many things to take forward into adulthood Hithere, unfortunately some of the lessons taught are soon forgotten.

This is not minor. You are micromanaging.

You are triangulating and interfering in another adult relationship (your son and his father) that you are not part of

If "him" refers to the father of the son: making the father of your son happy is a priority, you should have taught your son to remember his father's bday.

If "him" refers to son: your book is not your son's book.
If your son thought his father's bday was important to him, he would make an effort himself to remember it, not rely on another adult.