Domestic Violence from kids to parents

Smileless2012

That's easy to say when you are not the parent in an abusive coercive relationship who has been brain washed into believing that the abuse they receive is their fault.

I know how hard it is for people in abusive relationships to leave, but that does not lessen the harm done to the children of that relationship.

If the parent is not able to leave to protect the children, social services will intervene to prevent any further harm to the children.

we seem to have drifted from the original discussion.
i know of a case where adult children are abusing their parent by controlling her money and now limiting her access to food. as they don't want her wasting her money on too much fruit. they say she eats too much.
she is disabled, though of sound mind, she cannot physically shift for herself. they also resent the money paid to a careworker and berate her for taking too long. the client has multiple complex morbidities.
but, she will never say or support any complaint against the AC. so nothing can be done. it is most frustrating, and concerning. she colludes by inertia.
she will not consciously accept that they are abusing/neglecting her. is it Stockholm syndrome ?

EllanVannin -- "HolyHannah a tiny baby can manipulate let alone one at infant/primary school age, so your " blame the parents " remark doesn't hold water." -- I assume by manipulate you mean: "to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage".

A "tiny baby" cannot possibly "manipulate" by definition. According to accepted child development 'norms':

"Between 18 months to three years of age, toddlers have reached the "sensorimotor" stage of Piaget's theory of cognitive development that involves rudimentary thought. For instance, they understand the permanence of objects and people, visually follow the displacement of objects, and begin to use instruments and tools."

A "tiny baby" doesn't have the ability to think, "Hey! If I cry and scream because I'm wet and hungry I can make that adult do... and that other adult do something else!"

There is nothing going on where I am "blaming parents" for anything. Adults who blame minor children for things out of their control or that the adult has the ability to change where the child does not, is what my issue has been.

Labeling minor children as young as "tiny babies" as "manipulators" is not okay or healthy. When people put motives onto others' it changes how you react to that person. If you think your child is a "manipulator"/liar then you'll treat everything they say as a lie...

How does that build a healthy relationship when a child comes to understand that their parent believes everything they say is a "manipulation"/lie? The child will start lying/telling the parent/adult what they want to hear because, why not? Parent thinks child lies anyway and now the child becomes a liar so the prophecy is fulfilled.

Which came first in that scenario was that the adult/parent put a negative label on the child and then the child grew into that 'role'. So the parent/adult did play a part in the child's behavior in a negative way. The parent then should not blame the child for lying. The parent set up the situation where trying to "lie your way out" is as good a route as any...

Explaining how negative labels cause more harm then good is not "blaming the parent". Explaining that parents/adults have a responsibility to model the behavior we want/expect from our minor children is not "blaming the parent". It's called being accountable for our adult part in a child's development, regardless of what child you are interacting with/biological relationship etc. Adults hold power children do not. How adults use that 'power' is on the adult.

Holding children accountable for their behavior at age/maturity appropriate levels, is good parenting. Putting inappropriate/unrealistic expectations on minor children is not.

Smileless I already clarified a difference between fault and responsibility.

I'm afraid the responsibility to protect our minor children doesn't change regardless of the situation.

The issue of protection of children from witnessing domestic abuse probably needs a thread of its own.
The evidence is clear, witnessing abuse, usually from the father/male partner to the mother emotionally harms children. Children under age three can't really differentiate between an attack on their mother and an attack on themselves.
Safeguarding guidance means the Police notify children's Services every time they're called out to domestic abuse. Smilesless is right to point out the difficulties many women have in leaving abusive male partners. I haven't looked at the latest research but it used to be that on average, women separate over twenty times, before being strong enough to make that final step and leave.
Women fear losing their children, they fear another beating if they are honest with a police officer or social worker. They may be dependent on their partner financially never mind emotionally.
Sadly Women's Refuges and the few charities set up to work with men who acknowledge domestic abuse are struggling due to the austerity approach. Many are closing, leaving support for children in these families vanishingly rare.
The Freedom Project was one resource developed to help women in abusive relationships, especially women who had a series of abusive relationships.
Removing children from home is always the last resort, as it should be.

I'm not saying it does Starblaze but the reality of domestic abuse has to be taken into account.

Yes, SS will remove children who are at risk because of domestic abuse in the home, but they can only do so if it's reported.

There are victims who are too afraid to reach out for help for fear of the consequences. Abusers isolate their victims from family and friends so their victim believes that their abuser is the only person they have.

This thread is about parents who are physically abused by their children, and although the perpetrators may have witnessed or been subjected too abuse as children, so that being a factor that needs recognition, this thread isn't about child abuse per se.

There is a thread to discuss that issue and it's a shame that this thread is going off the subject.

That's a terrible situation for that poor woman to be in welbeck and the term Stockholm syndrome is appropriate. Regardless of her biological relationship with her abusers, her children, she is reliant on them as her 'captors', those who are keeping her in a lifestyle that benefits them rather than her.

Just as it's heartbreaking for children to recognise that their parents are their abusers, so is it for parents to recognise that their own children are theirs.

I agree Iam that there should be another thread to discuss protecting children from abuse, or the thread for EAC that have been abused would be more appropriate.

Some women who are successful in finding accommodation in Women's Refuges still end up going back to their abuser, being coerced into believing that things will change, that they'll never be beaten again.

They often find that what they return too is more horrifying than what they left because they dared to leave in the first place.

I left the thread yesterday as I do have a life outside of Gransnet and do not have time to spend on it all day.

I see my name has been brought up several times by posters and thank-you to everyone that agreed with me as a GM that I was correct in leaving my D house the day my GD told me to F--k Off. I have always given clear boundaries to my own adult daughter and sadly it is her that has failed to extend having boundaries to her own child (my GD) so it is no surprise this was going to happen at some point.
Contrary to a GN member that pm me saying do not be afraid to post because you are being judged and although you are a great input to your D AND GD lives this person said I had no right to call my GD naughty.

I will clarify to all that I am from old fashioned up bringing
and would have got much more from my mother if I ever dared to tell anyone to F--k Off. Also my own children were given clear boundaries and never once told their GM to F--k Off. I stand by my decision that telling my GD she was very naughty was a correct response.

To one or two posters who said children should not be made to feel bad about themselves I will say that I had a conversation with my GD about the day that this happened.
I asked her what her teacher would say if she heard her swearing in that way. My GD replied to me "I would never swear in school because I am not allowed, but Mummy always swears on her phone so that means I can swear at home" The whole problem created by my D who needs parenting classes to teach her that children learn by example and if you set bad examples then you reap what you sew.
Also no private messages thanks all i done was reply to the original posters post, and I have found many posters had some informative posts.

'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' sprung to mind when reading some of the responses to your post 3nanny. Despite it being suggested twice now by a poster that this particular issue has been discussed and should be left, some have felt the need to carry it on.

Let's hope your last post on this incident will be the last post on this incident.

Thank-you Smileless2012. and some of the posts have been from people that do not have GC. To that I say unless you are walking in my shoes and have the scenarios I sometimes have to navigate through in regard of my GC then they do not know anything.

I will be out of this post now and off into the wide world for a few hours to take a rest from posting and receiving negative comments may I add none of those from you.

I don’t agree that this thread is going off the subject.

The thread is about violence from minor children to their parents.

The problem with that though, is that violence and aggression in a child is a clear sign of something going on. That could be abuse (witnessing domestic violence, being physically/sexually/emotionally abused, not being given proper boundaries and guidance in life, neglect), a traumatic event or behavioural issues.

With intervention, violence and aggression in children can be managed and they can learn to channel their anger and frustrations in other ways.

A child is always growing and learning. Their behaviours and personality are not set.

To disregard the many reasons why a child is behaving violently is to say that some children are born bad. And I have never seen or read anything that suggests this is the case.

Reading through the OP again, I can see that the post was specifically about sons.

There is much known about the effects of the lack of a positive, caring male figure in the life of young boys.

In the US, I know there is an organisation called Big Brother Big Sister which aims to partner children (mostly of single parent families) with a positive adult figure of the same sex. I think there is a similar organisation in the London area, although I am not sure about the rest of the U.K.

This thread isn't about abuse from minor children toward parents, it's about "Domestic violence from kids to parents" regardless of the age or gender of the child.

There as you say, various reasons why a child may become abusive, and I posted about reasons other than being a victim of or witness too abuse as a child in an earlier post.

I don't subscribe to the view that people are born bad although that's often a point of view posited by some, and has been said about the perpetrators of particularly heinous crimes for example Hindley, Brady, the Wests and the child killers of little Jamie Bulger.

Smileless2012

This thread isn't about abuse from minor children toward parents, it's about "Domestic violence from kids to parents" regardless of the age or gender of the child.

There as you say, various reasons why a child may become abusive, and I posted about reasons other than being a victim of or witness too abuse as a child in an earlier post.

I don't subscribe to the view that people are born bad although that's often a point of view posited by some, and has been said about the perpetrators of particularly heinous crimes for example Hindley, Brady, the Wests and the child killers of little Jamie Bulger.

My reading of the OP and the use of “kids” in the title, suggests that we are talking about minor children. The OP does specifically mention violence from sons to their mothers.

Anyway, everyone will read the thread differently and post in accordance with their interpretation. And as the conversation progresses, issues relating to the initial topic will be discussed. That’s the nature of conversation. That can’t be helped.

It is known Hindley, Brady etc all came from highly abusive backgrounds.

We have the knowledge. It’s the prevention that we, as a society, need to work on.

I think the lack of funds and resources play a massive part.

Yes they did and from what I've read about Hindley her mother and sister were pilloried following her arrest and subsequent trial, despite the that had it not been for Hindley's brother in law reporting them to the police, they may never have been stopped.

I agree that "lack of funds and resources play a massive part" as does a lack of basic discipline in the home, together with the myriad of influences outside of the family.

HH, to a new mum, a new baby can manipulate. Unless a baby has a pain ( wind ) or is hungry or wet/soiled it won't cry, but if a new mum picks up a new baby every time there's a murmur, the baby will then get to know that attention is being paid to it that if it makes a noise it will be picked up and immediately stops the noise.

A baby knows from a very early age that mum is a " pushover " so will gain her attention every time, so boundaries start from a very early age.

A fed, changed and warm baby will/should sleep---if not LEAVE them to cry as I did and don't be ruled by this small object who has to learn that it won't get its own way. It works.
The same applies when they're growing. Firm but fair. That works as well.

Smileless2012

Yes they did and from what I've read about Hindley her mother and sister were pilloried following her arrest and subsequent trial, despite the that had it not been for Hindley's brother in law reporting them to the police, they may never have been stopped.

I agree that "lack of funds and resources play a massive part" as does a lack of basic discipline in the home, together with the myriad of influences outside of the family.

Head injuries, death of a parent/loved one, being bullied at school. It is a long list. When a child is removed from their home where domestic violence is happening, that adds another layer of trauma to the child.

When a child is showing violence and aggression, that is the time for intervention. It is better to look at the situation and say “That child is struggling, what can we do to help” rather than “That child’s behaviour is terrible, they ought be ashamed of themselves”.

Children are not children forever, and if we do not identify violence and aggression as a communication to us that something isn’t okay in their world, and instead label the child as “bad”, then we, as a society, have failed them.

3nanny6, Im not judging you but I am afraid that's not the correct response and probably won't get you the result you want. I won't go over why again.

In a school setting we would get a warning at least for calling a child naughty or nasty because it is considered verbally abusive language. There are better ways.

I agree MrsWarren but some do not show violence and aggression until they are teenagers or adults and what they do exhibit has nothing to do with the environment in which they were raised.

I agree of course that it can and often does stem from childhood but it isn't always the fault of the parents, and parent blaming in all cases, not only takes the focus away from the actual cause, but can prevent a parent seeking help for fear of the wrong assumptions being made, and being blamed.

During both pregnancies, not picking up your baby every time s/he cries was constantly being reinforced EllanV.

I agree that boundaries need to start from a very early age and the one who benefits the most from those boundaries is the child.

A school setting isn't the same as a home setting; you're talking to other people's children, not your own children or your GC.

Can we let this particular matter rest now.

The only difference between a school setting and a home setting is that, we are held accountable for abusive language as adults I'm afraid.

I would not say those things at home either.

Can i please also point out that babies aren't objects and that's not a reasonable thing to say either....

Personal growth, read the research, be a positive force to all children you meet. They may need it, you don't know what is going on behind closed doors.

Can we let this particular matter rest now.

Any abuse is wrong. All abusers need to either get the appropriate punishment or intervention to help them manage their behaviour... If we aren't going to be open minded and ask ourselves:

Why is this happening?

Then we aren't going to be part of the solution and yes, the discussion is pointless.

I do not believe the discussion is pointless but I'm not forcing anyone to listen, that's a choice.

Who has said that babies are objects?

I'm sure the majority of us who have raised our own children, and those of us who are a part of the GC's lives know about personal growth and don't have to research it.