SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Nicegranny I am an atheist. But what has gotten me through the almost first year without my son and family. Is Smiles and all the others on this thread. I know you where just asking Smiles but I though I would should how someone without faith copes. I read the thread from May and took me a while before I contacted Smileless via several PMs. And finally plucked up the courage with her help to post openly. And very glad I did.

3nanny6 don't let fear stop you from loving your new grandchild when the baby arrives. I have 3 grandson's with my son and daughter in law. I only know 2 of them. But love all 3. What has always given me comfort since my husband died is the children and grandchildren have part of his DNA . Weird I know . But to me he lives on in them.

I may never see those boys again but they are innocent. They have had no choice. And some day if they want to know me I will give them that chance. And they can judge for themselves what I am like.

My love for my 2 grandson's with my daughter and son in law. Is boundless. When this happened with my son my daughter and son in law said t
I will never lose them.

I miss my other grandsons. But that does not sour the love and joy I get from other grandsons. I see them at least once a week. My daughter texts everyday to check up on me. They where here today. The 3 year was helping me place stones in the garden.and running around and looking at all the flowers. His brother is 4 months old and smiles all the time chuckles and making noises.

The first time my daughter asked me to look after the eldest by myself I was filled with had much joy and happiness that they trusted me with him. Had to have a refresher course on changing a nappy. Never forget my daughter saying watch out he will roll. He never did with me. As he got older we cook together. Ok it's messy but I did it with my 2 when they where little.

Since my husband died if I let fear hold me back I would never do anything. Probably already said but I was with him from when I was 16 and he was 18. 45 when he died he was 47. Don't laugh be it wasn't until I was 46 I went on holiday by myself or enter a pub by myself.

Love your new grandchild and be proud your son has already said how often he wants you to see the baby.

Fear and hatred are destructive emotions. I won't let them rule my life. Don't let fear rule yours. When you hold that baby in your arms for the first time you won't be able to help yourself but love him/her.

Hi Nicegranny I'm glad that you felt able to ask and am quite happy to answer. I just hope that my response doesn't come across as 'preachy', it's based on mine and Mr. S.'s personal experience.

Our Christian faith has been an important factor in our journey to achieving a relatively peaceful and happy life, but it hasn't been easy.

To begin with I thought if I prayed hard enough, long enough and begged that our son would come back to us it would happen, and boy did I do all of those things.

When it didn't happen, I was angry, very angry not just with our son but with God too and I told him so. I just couldn't understand why this had happened and how we were supposed to spend the rest of our lives without the son we adored and loved so much.

As hard as accepting that our son didn't want us in his or our GC's lives, was accepting that no matter how hard I prayed and begged only he could change his mind. It was out of our hands and out of God's hands too.

So I suppose it would be fair to say that begin our faith was on the one hand a stumbling block and on the other our greatest source of strength and comfort. It took 4 years before I could see that the only stumbling block had been the one I'd created by refusing to accept that our son was lost to us.

It took a long time Armadillo before no one was able to make me feel bad because we'd lost our son and I hope that you'll feel like that one day too.

You know why you've estranged and that it was the right thing to do, just as I know that it wasn't because of anything we did that resulted in our son estranging us.

As you've posted Chewbacca "estrangement is utterly agonising for everyone, whichever way the estrangement goes" and that's why this forum and in particular this thread, are so important, especially the posts that show us all that estrangement doesn't have to be an end, it can be a beginning.

Well, for what it's worth; I too estranged my mother when I was middle aged and with young children of my own and I've seen nothing on here that's made me feel bad about my decision or myself. I recognise and appreciate that estrangement is utterly agonising for everyone, whichever way the estrangement goes, and all of you, whether you are the estranger or the estranged, have my utmost respect and sympathy.

Smileless12

There’s something that I been wanting to ask you for a long time but never had the courage to ask.
1) because I don’t know if this is the wrong thread?
2) is it rude of me to even ask?

I will explain, I have read through some of the very painful posts of yours. I have also read some of the good advice you have given (even received your advice and still act upon it myself thank you).
If it’s not too personal, rude or not the right place, how have you gotten through such pain? I am guessing that you are a Christian lady and wondered if you’re faith has carried you through such terrible agony?

Here l go lm pressing the post button ?

we are talking about our estrangement experiences Armadillo. They are not being discussed to make you feel bad, any more than your experiences with your mum which you've talked about here, were to make us feel bad.

We fully acknowledge that for some estrangement was the only way and support them in that decision, just as there are EP's who did nothing to deserve their estrangement.

I just don't get why you are saying it in ways that make me feel bad to be estranged. I joined up knowing what I was joining. I will just go.

I know how you feel 3nanny. DS doesn't have children but I know I'd feel the same if he were to announce that he was going to be a dad.

That's one of the awful things about the legacy of estrangement, you spend the rest of your life living in fear. Fear if one of you're other child(ren) has GC, if you'll be stopped from seeing them too.

Fear overriding what should be joyful news of your AC's first child's imminent arrival in case history repeats itself. Fear of loving them and becoming attached in case they're taken away from you.

Fear that having lost one child you may lose your other child(ren). You did nothing to deserve it the first time, so how can you prevent it from happening again.

Fear of attempting a reconciliation even if the first move is made by the child who estranged you. They did the unthinkable, the unbelievable; they've done it before so how can you trust they'll never do it again?

Try and enjoy looking forward 3nanny and remember that life is for living in the now and in the future, not what was in the pastx

Thank you Iam, Chewbacca and Whiff.

I always dip in and out of this thread and do not always post.
I have just been reading a long list of posts and they are so well written and describe some of the heartaches. Maybe that's why I do not post all the time then it saves me getting upset.

I am just getting on with things living each day as it comes, my son was having a conversation with me a few days ago about his first child due in June and he was saying that he wants me to see the baby at least 3 times a week.
I could not tell him how my stomach gripped with fear and
how anxious that made me feel. The three GC I have by my daughter are much loved by me but what a dissapointing and chaotic eight years that has been with those children.
I look forward to this new baby although sometimes I fear that I cannot get to the situation of loving another child as I
will be wondering will the same thing happen again.
I need to be more positive although that is not easy.

Smiles head the nail on the head as usual. ?

Perfectly articulated at 09.49 today Smileless 2012, thank you.

Smileless2012

"If DIL's can be narcissists wouldn't you be grateful to not have them near little children in your family?" But they are near to little children in the family, they have children of their own, they're mothers to our GC.

Thanks Smilesless- this was the point I wanted to make. Let’s remember it isn’t only parents or ‘in laws’ who cause estrangement it can be our adult children.
Who ever causes this, leaves a trail of heartbreak. At a minimum they can rob their children of loving supportive grandparents

"If DIL's can be narcissists wouldn't you be grateful to not have them near little children in your family?" But they are near to little children in the family, they have children of their own, they're mothers to our GC.

Thank you all for your support. Estrangement is hard to talk about. And Sparkling you are so right there are support groups everywhere for different things. But estrangement seems to be taboo.

Thankfully we have this thread. My son knows what bad parents are like he knew what his dad went through. Even though he never knew his grandfather he died when he was a baby. He knew first hand what his grandmother was like and he saw how she treated her own son and me. Also she was vile to her only granddaughter . Once he was born she focused on him. Never treated them equally as we always did and so did my parents. He also knows about my dad's upbringing.

I can not fault either my son or daughter in law as parents. The 2 grandsons I know are being brought up brilliantly. And the baby will to

. I used to say he was like his dad. But he has shown himself and my daughter in law to be just like my in laws.

The big difference is my husband and myself never abandoned his parents. No matter what they said or did to us before and after having the children. Even after my husband's death I never abandoned my mother in law and her behaviour and venom only got worse as she got older. Always said she would live to a ripe old age to spite me . She was 91. She didn't deserve to live a long life. She was all self. She hadn't got the excuse of have dementia as she was in full control of her faculties until she died.
I am an atheist but do believe in good and evil. And what our estranged members of our families have done is evil. They do not care about the hurt or harm they do. And the lies that are told is beyond belief.

By being able to be open and honest here has made it so much easier for me. I will never get my son back.

But have a wonderful daughter ,son in law and 2 grandson's. Plus other family and friends so I consider myself lucky. I know I am loved and love in return. I may not have my son and 3 grandson's but I have more than some people have their whole life . And for that I am grateful.

Armadillo, Some moms are narcissists, so are some dads, that's why they estrange families to keep control, they don't want their children or husbands affection going anywhere but to them. It's a kind of brainwashing, what reasons are children and partners given for the estrangement, no doubt the blame is on those they estrange. One day these children will be adults and maybe see just what that mother or fathers are really like. . The trouble is those estranged look for reasons and solutions, no this can't be happening, it takes over lives, that's why it needs to be out there, to be talked about, for support and show what a big deal all this is.
There are support groups in every town or city for the most things, but not this., but nothing for estrangement, a taboo subject. Esther and Gloria have publicly denounced grandparents being excluded and that although some parents are toxic, certainly the majority are not, bu caught up in the nightmare that threatens our mental health if we can't distance from it. I always overthink at certain times, when families get together at holiday times and birthdays still, hence this early post. Thank goodness there are these forums where anyone can join in and find support, one of the best supporters of this is Smileless, ?she keeps this going.

Mum's can be narcissists too that aren't safe around children. If DILs can be narcissists wouldn't you be grateful to not have them near little children in your family?

"You cannot make up at the last minute for a life time of rejection and pain" that's so true Sparkling.

Two years before Jack died they attended the same funeral, but Jack had Alzheimer’s, so no it was too late, what a waste. People say it’s never too late, but that isn’t true. You cannot make up at the last minute for a life time of rejection and pain.

Sparkling I'm sorry but not surprised you've had unkind posts in the past. Having been on the receiving end myself, I know how upsetting that is and it's not as if we're not hurting enough is it.

I don't know if they'll ever realise just how much they've thrown away. If and when they do it may be too late. Too late because the parents they estranged are no longer living or too late because the parents they estranged are unable to take the risk of going back into a relationship with them again.

I didn't know that about the Charlton brothers did they patch things up before Jack died?

Whiff, I have been on this forum a long time, previously another name but I had unkind posts. Reading what your son has put you through made me well up, just how cruel was he, when I read that I know he can’t make that right, you should focus on the daughter that is there for you, you as a mother will have deep down, like I do, the ridiculous niggle inside that a miracle will happen, he will see the light, repent and you can be reunited, for that’s how I’ve always felt, yet I know it’s futile, that it’s crossed tge line that you can’t go back on. Smileless your dil is definitely a narcissist, your son chose her way so is as bad, she has a history of alienating her own parents, they must know it could happen again. If only these selfish people knew how much they throw away when they ditch their parents. I watched the documentary about Jack and Bobby Charlton, I would recommend watching it, 2 stubborn brothers who , despite their successful careers, let pride hurt so many people.

That's a lovely supportive post Sparkling .

I agree that it is abusive and have even stated so here on GN but it wasn't exactly well received. It does affect a lot of GP's and of course their GC too.

I cannot for the life of me understand why parents just stop their children from seeing the GP's they've come to know and love. It's beyond cruel as well as being spiteful and vindictive.

Our son did the same as yours Whiff, no warning. We even have an email saying that they'd never stop us from seeing our GC because they knew how much we loved him!!

We've lost our only GC because of our estrangement, it's heartbreaking but I guess it was just never meant to be for us anyway.

Then there are the lies, the false allegations the things they accuse us of that never happened. That's devastating isn't it Rhinestone and 8 years on, I only have to think about what was said to know that my anger is as strong as it ever was.

So you never really know why, you never found out what you did that was so terrible that your own child wants nothing to do with you and you're not fit to be let any where near your GC.

It's just wonderful that this thread is still running and has been for more than 7 years and that there's an entire forum dedicated to estrangement.

Sometimes people look at me funny when I say I don't talk to my mum but they don't know the situation and anyone can be abusive. It's hard to tell but it's true. I think people are learning about estrangement now though as most people I meet are aware of it.

WhiffI can relate. What started was my ESS ignoring my DH when we would get together. Then after taking their family out to dinner ( 6 years ago) our ESS’s wife said in a text that her children deserved a better grandfather. We wrote back to her text and, because it was send from my cell phone, they thought I wrote the text. My ESS texted my DH and said he may talk to him in the future but never me again.
DH responded saying he wrote the letter with me. We have texted, emailed, sent cards, phone messages but nothing. One day I meet the DIL’s mother at a store and she’s telling me how she told ESS and her daughter that she forgave her father for beating her sister up and that ESS should forgive his father. WTH?? Where did that accusation come from? So we don’t even know the real cause of all of this just accusations with no facts or examples. I have been with my DH over 35 years. He has never beaten up anyone.

Sparkling we are not rubbish parents. In my case I think all the warning signs where there for years. But my husband died when our daughter was 20 and son 16. We had know for 3 years he wouldn't live 5 years. After my husband funeral my son's behaviour was a nightmare at times but it was due to grief. Caused rows between the children. A year later he me his future wife. I was so happy my boy was happy again. And was the son we always knew. I grew to love my future daughter in law. They where both 17 and married at 28. They lived together for years like my daughter and her future husband.

They moved to live where they went to uni. Told them to as they had made life's and could get jobs easier there. Longer story but that's the basis.

I had parents and mother in law still alive so lived over 100 miles away. Saw them when we could and I visited them. Put up with my son letting me down at last minute and my daughter in law's rudest. Because I loved them. Finally after deaths of parents and mother in law I was free to move. Both my children where happy I would be closer to them.

Think that was what really made my daughter in law stuck the knife in. If you have read Smiles thread you will know what she did.

What hurt me the most my son came every week with my 2 grandson's she only visited 3 times last boxing day 2019. Last time I saw my grandson's was March last year but had photos and videos. Last saw my son 30th April which was my birthday had a wonderful time. 4 days later he sent me that email. What hurts most is he knew on birthday what he was going to do.We didn't raise him to be cruel and cowardly. Unfortunately became that on his own.

I still love him and miss my now 3 grandsons knew from the February they where expecting again and it was another boy he was due in July. Don't even know exactly when he was born or his name. Any love I had for my daughter in law died when I found out on Reddit she had written FIL died to get away from MIL. She didn't even know my husband.

I can never forgive either of them and will never trust my son ever again. My hope is my grandson's when they find partners they get the same treatment as they are giving me. Be a long wait as they are 4,2 and baby. My son calls me vindictive and manipulative. Don't know what I have ever done to be call that. But I believe in Karma and what goes around comes around.

Thankfully I have a wonderful daughter, son in law and 2 grandson's who I love very much and who love me.

My son didn't just cut me out of their lives but all our side of the family.

I wish this subject was aired as much as all the other prominent injustices at the moment. It is bottom of the list as if it's shameful and people will look down on you as some sort of failure as a rubbish parent because your child doesn't care about you do why should anyone else. If it was out there as it us a firm of abuse, mentally, everyone would be aware of the pain that some grandparent suffer everyvday of their lives. It affects so many people and it's not a small problem.