SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

I know Whiff that partners can be instrumental in the breakdown, but our children have minds of their own. It’s awful without a partner to support you as you get older, without that family support.

Sparkling I am the type of person who will always find a positive out of a negative. Case in point I have been having recurring UTIs and kidney infections since September. The positive is my son took me to see my
new neurologist February last year . He prescribed a tablet I take twice a day not had a seizure in a year.

My daughter suffered to but she hasn't done what my son has. As I said in a previous post. The difference is in the people they married.

I don’t doubt that you have suffered, just that your son did too, although he was cocky at the time. I can’t think how he went from a good relationship saying he loved you to what he did that severed his relationship with you for ever. It’s hard to live with I know, the balls in his court, you have no alternative but to concentrate on what you do have that’s good.

Much of your last paragraph resonates Whiff; "he has always been able to talk to me". Our ES must have known that the last time we saw him would be the last time.

I often wonder how many times when he said 'I love you mum' were a lie. .

Sparkling the point is he did open up to us. We talked about everything. As a family. Our children's voices where always heard and their feelings taken into consideration always first. I know full well about teenage boys emotions. You are talking like my friend who is a family counselor. You see it as an outsider . He was 13 when we had to tell him and his sister 17 their dad wouldn't live 5 years. They both opened their hearts to us. He knew perfectly well what he was doing. He thought it was funny the next day. He didn't even have a hang over.

We have always been honest and answered any questions they asked. There was no Google in their early years we went to the library so we could always answer whatever they needed to know.

My husband from when he knew he had cancer cried himself to sleep in my arms for months afterwards. When he was terminal and woke in agony in the night he made me hold a pillow over his face while he screamed into so our son and when our daughter was there didn't hear . Until the morphine made him sleep.

So I will not go along with excuses for my son's behaviour then or now.

Smiles knows quite a bit about my life and what it's been like since my husband died and things I have had to do. But my children where always protected from the reality of my life when I live over 100 miles away.

Both the children where happy I would be close by. It's what they had wanted for a long time. Until that email my relationship with my son was brilliant. He came every week with my grandson's . He has always been able to talk to me about everything. I was so happy to see him on my birthday. We had to practice social distancing but had a wonderful few hours. Even talked about putting paving down for me. Then 4 days later everything collapsed. He must have known on my birthday what he was going to do. What he wrote was was thought out. Of all the lies the biggest one was I love you mom.

Whiff, I do have sympathy for your position but one point I do not. When your son was 15 and his dad was doing he drank a bottle of vodka, necessitating a stomach pump. 15 is very young to cope with the impending death of your father, I doubt very much he did it to make his dad feel guilty, just that he couldn’t cope and he saw oblivion in a bottle, a silly futile thing to do, but perhaps he had no other way to run away from the situation for a time, everything focused on his dying parent when he was finding it hard to process and didnt know how he would cope.. I have worked with teenage boys, they don’t find emotions easy, they can get overlooked and they need someone to open their heart to. He couldn’t to you, you were suffering. How many of us have felt we don’t know which way to turn and maybe did a silly thing without any thought.

Yeah that's quite helpful really. I think because I've been reading about what are abusive behaviours that I look at them and it seems obvious now so everyone should know. I didn't know though did I before. Sad really.

All wise words smiles
I'm always amazed at how people can be deluded about anything, me included I'm sure, whether it's believing we are indispensable, kidding ourselves we are better or worse at something than we would judge others to be (you only have to watch any TV talent show ) or our behaviour.
I think most people convince themselves they are in the right or are justified. It seems hard to grasp when the behaviour seems wrong and extreme to us, but as you say it depends on a person's perception of normality.

If you don't know you're being abusive, you wont think you are doing anything wrong will you.

You might not know because you were raised with abuse and for you, that is normal family behaviour so even though you're continuing the cycle of abuse, that is normal and therefore must be right.

Abusers justify their abusive behaviour by blaming the victim; s/he asked for it, wouldn't stop doing something or other, wouldn't start doing something or other, wouldn't speak, wouldn't shut up etc etc.

An abusers self pity is a defence mechanism; I couldn't help it, it's not my fault, I don't understand what I've done wrong etc etc.

If a personality disorder is involved for example narcissism, the abuser simply doesn't care. Right or wrong only comes into the equation if it's right or wrong, good or bad for them. They have no empathy for anyone else and the only empathy they're interested in is for themselves.

They don't care about their victim(s). The only victim they'll see is themselves.

What I don't get and can't puzzle out is there are all these abusive ways of behaving but I'm not sure abusive people know they are abusive?
I don't get how anyone can feel justified in abuse and being cruel to their own family member.
Its really puzzling me as I've been reading about what abuse is and so how do they think they are right to do what they do and feel sorry for themselves?

It's impossible to understand. Those of us who have had our hearts broken by the child(ren) who have estranged us will love them still, even if we don't like them.

Armadillo sorry your childhood was so unhappy. I can't understand how a mother and father can't love their children. I know it happens my husband and dad grew up without love. My husband's parents didn't verbally or physically abuse him. But never told him he was loved or they where proud of him . Hugs where for birthdays and Christmas. His mother finally total him she loved him the day he died but he was unconscious. As I have said dad was physically hurt, so much so he had a hole the back of his right ear from being hit and was deaf in that ear. He took the beatings to spare his brothers and sisters. They were kept clean but where malnourished.

Both of them only knew what unconditional love was when my dad met mom and my husband met my brother and then we became a couple.

Both our children always knew they were loved and we where proud of them. I love my son in law as my own.

And did my daughter in law but what she wrote is unforgivable and any love I had died that day. But don't hate her or my son. Still love him very much and my grandson's. I was so proud of how they made their lives together and buying their own house. Both of them have always worked. But not proud of what he has done.

He once when he was 15 or so drunk a whole bottle of vodka and had to have his stomach pumped. I told him I was ashamed of him and never make me feel that way again. He's excuse was he was sad his dad was going to die. Told him that was no excuse. He made his dad feel guilty about dying. Never forgave him for making his dad feel that way. He didn't want to die it wasn't he's choice. He promised me he would never make me feel that way again.

I am ashamed of the way he cruelly and cowardly disowned me and all our side of the family. All we ever did was love him and his family. My daughter and daughter in law never got on. But I didn't with my brother's second wife. But was never unkind or indifferent to her. She was my brother's wife and my nephew and nieces mom. She was treated as one of the family.

Once my dad met my mom his siblings always got birthday and Christmas presents. Things they never had before. Mom was the oldest of 5 but what they lacked in money my grandparents made up with love , attention and good cheap food . They where always clean and well dressed. My brother and me where brought up the same way. Mom and dad never had well paid jobs. But still brought their own house ,dad had a car and we had a week in a caravan every year.

Those here who had awful childhoods are proof that you can rise above that and make sure your own children know they are loved and cherished. That takes a lot of strength and determination. And you should feel very proud of yourselves. You are living proof that no matter what life throws at you you can make life better for your loved ones and yourself. ??

I get that I really do and I feel like I didn't get to be a child at all. Always shouted at unless I was quiet out the way. I would get shouted at if I laughed to be quiet and when I was happy they did something to ruin it.
I remember my uncle gave me my own tele and they took it away and gave it to my brother. I got a library card after that and I was so happy to just have something to do. I don't have any good memories of being a child that weren't reading on my own or going for walks. I used to look for places I could live on my own like under a bridge or in a bird hide and plan out how I could do it. It's so strange what you can put up with and not realise how bad it is.

We had another slight flurry this afternoon hugshelp but it didn't last long, so will you be building a snowman, engaging in a snowball fighting or making snow angels by any chance?

Afternoon all. Yup snow here too.

*
An unenviable position for DS to be in, never knowing what information to pass on and no doubt it's the same with his brother.

I've seen people refer to estrangement as like throwing a pebble into a pond as the ripples that creates spread outward, and as many of us know reach many if not all members of our extended families.* That resonates so much smiles I'm glad your Es and family have mild cases.

I'm sorry you are having such a tough time Rhinestone.
I resonate very strongly with what you said too. As far as strength I’m not sure how strong I am. When you are a child you just deal with what blows you are given. I have learned at an early age to be a problem solver yet I have been with people who want to complain and when you have a solution for their problem they don’t want to hear it.

It's sad that you had to learn "to be a problem solver" from such a young age Rhinestone that said, it's certainly been something that you've been able to draw on throughout your life.

We've all I'm sure come across people "who want to complain and when you have a solution for their problem they don't want to hear it". It can be very frustrating can't it, especially when they are people we love.

As you say, we continue to worry "estrangement or not".

Thank you all for your support. And that’s all I need to get through another day.
Whiff Our healthcare here is expensive and only as good as the person treating you or caring for you. We all have problems and who is to say that ones problem is worse than someone else’s.. It’s all relative really so your problems are just as important .
As far as strength I’m not sure how strong I am. When you are a child you just deal with what blows you are given. I have learned at an early age to be a problem solver yet I have been with people who want to complain and when you have a solution for their problem they don’t want to hear it.
SmilelessI’m glad your ES and his family have only a mild case. Yet it still worries us, doesn’t it, estrangement or not?

Good to hear its a mild case for them Smileless. The ripples spread and spread don't they. It must be hard for your DS not knowing whether to mention things or not

Woke up this morning to snow on the roof tops; it is spring isn't itso another cold day in store.

Found out recently from DS that ES and the entire family have Covid. Started with our eldest GC but it's a mild dose thank goodness and I think their self isolation will be coming to end this week.

An unenviable position for DS to be in, never knowing what information to pass on and no doubt it's the same with his brother.

I've seen people refer to estrangement as like throwing a pebble into a pond as the ripples that creates spread outward, and as many of us know reach many if not all members of our extended families.

Even when the ripples are no longer visible their effect can last a life time.

Hi hugshelp. Hope things get easier for you

Rhinestone I feel very petty getting upset over Onwards comments. When you have so many worries at the moment.

Here our appointments for operations, seeing consultants and having tests done all come from the hospital. Didn't realise you have to go through your Dr surely they have someone else who can get your operation booked for you. It not fair keeping you waiting. Once you have a date you can get everything organised and mentally prepare yourself for it.

Sorry about your friends death. 60 is to young. I hope she didn't suffer.

All the worry about your mom and son must be very draining. You must be a very strong woman to cope with all that is going on in your life. Glad you have your husband with you to help you cope.

I am sorry you grew up with a mom that you didn't know from day to day which mom you would have that day.
And you saying you had to be your own mom was like my dad saying he had to be father and protector to his brothers and sisters . He took the rod as he called it instead of them.

After all you have been through and going through you sign off by saying other than that I'm fine. I think you are a tower of strength and an inspiration to me. ??

Hope the spells of ill health and family concerns are all sorted hugshelp. So good to see your post and thanks for the wave.

Hi all, sorry not been around for a while. Lots of things keeping me busy and spells of ill health and family concerns.
Haven't time to catch up on everyone's news but I'll give you all a wave, wish you well, and try and start keeping up again.

Oh Rhinestone as Madgran has posted "life is so hard for you at every turn at the moment" and once again I don't know what to say so am sending you love, (((hugs))) and .

Rhinestone So sorry that life is so hard for you at every turn at the moment