Copying siblings , Psychology says it's a thing.

Chewbacca - that’s really interesting about the family you described. Many sociologists have made the link between boys and “trouble” as a generational gender bias of parenting. That’s not to accredit blame, but it has been shown (I can’t recall the study offhand) that boys who reached adolescence tended to be raised differently to be independent, strong and “manly”, whilst girls were more given more scope to be emotional.
Personally I think nature is more about inherent personality traits and preferences, with nurture being more influential on behaviours. Especially when you consider that nurture expands out early in childhood to encompass peer groups, school, teachers, media etc.

That's a horrible thing to do in the name of science, I will look at that Smileless2012 thanks. I don't really know much about statistics because they always seems to be set on average and I don't understand what average is. A few in the middle somewhere? I remember reading something about it once when I was looking into depression and it said that often mental health things that have a hereditary component need a life experience trigger to set them off which I think is very interesting.

Maybe it's all a bit more individual when you think about where hereditary comes from, 2 parents, 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and on and on. Which bits and how much could come from where or who? What impact nurture for any individual child has on anything predesposed or whether parenting style can change it is probably so complicated I don't know if there would ever be a solid answer?

Lolo81 - you are correct. I do not have experience raising boys, but I am a long time Girl Scout leader here in the US and am raising girls. I know girls.

I saw once about a study that said in 5th grade, girls tested higher than boys in math and science. By the end of high school, the percentage of girls in STEM classes was a fraction of the number of boys. That was because society, including parents, tended to push girls into a preconceived notion around the time puberty. So I can definitely see that boys would also be stereotyped by society around that age as well.

There has been a lot of conversation the last few years about gender norms. I am all for allowing boys to play with dolls and girls to play with cars, but in the grand scheme of things no one can change the fact that as a whole, girls like pink frilly things and boys want to jump off the top of play structures. (I saw that happen once and my girl mom sensibilities almost had a heart attack). There are exceptions, of course, but we just cant change the nature of things, as it were.

As for genetics, I am always surprised to see things in my own children that are also traits of my husband or I. My youngest sleeps in the same exact position her father does and shares a lot of personality traits. My oldest looks more like me and our personalities are very similar. That is why I parent them differently. My oldest and I are very level headed and calm. I can just have a conversation with her and things are well. My youngest and my husband are sensitive and emotional. I have learned how they sometimes need kid gloves. So yes, nature is the beginning and nurture the is upbringing based on the individual needs of the child.

After all my thinking and rambling on, I have cemented my opinion that parents do not parent all children the same. I think that when we say that "I have parented all my children the same way" we may mean that we have given our children the same opportunities to succeed in life. But we never can parent our children the same because the nature aspect of them would necessitate the nurture to be different.

Ah I missed the end bit! I think I am just grasping at straws in my attempt to make sense of life.

@Freedomfromthepast yes it is true that undiagnosed ADHD will result in adult depression and other issues. My ES was recently diagnosed with it and it's become clear that there are ,many comorbidities with ADHD.

My son has struggled with MH for a long time and as a child his ADHD was not picked up. As a teen he refused to engage with CAMHS and we could not understand what the problem was. I wish we had known, we probably could have done more.

I have not parented my kids the same way because their characters were so different. I always made allowances for the one that now has been diagnosed with ADHD because I always knew there was something wrong even though Dr's could not pinpoint it because he refused to engage. I even thought he had Oppositional Defiant Disorder because of the challenging behaviour. As an adult that is reclassified as Anti Social Behaviour Disorder.

Looking back I wish I could have had more help. I have struggled ten years with challenging and abusive behaviour and accepted too much. It has not been fair on my other kids. Some of the behaviors have definitely been copied, like life choices but the actual disposition and character have not been replicated.

I had always hoped that nurture would be enough to counteract the abusive genes from their father. But much as you love someone there comes a point where you can't take any more abuse.

Just to add to the anecdotal discussion, myself and my sibling and my children are very different from each other. Very different paths in life. None of us are estranged though my husband is estranged from his family and I gather there is some history of this in his family. Not so much among his siblings though.

I was talking to a friend recently who had been having a tough time with one of her daughters. When I asked her how things were she said "It suddenly hit me that all the things I didn't like about my daughter were things I didn't like about myself". So she worked on changing those things for herself without saying anything to her daughter and her daughter responded positively and things got better.

I found that really interesting and it's making me think that actually I can apply that to my relationships with my children too.

@Astral I have heard people say that before too. I haven't ever had girls, so maybe it's different because I've never felt similar to my kids.
One of mine is abusive and search myself as I have, I'm pretty sure I'm not abusive ( but their Dad is). I think some traits do come from other family members as well as one of mine takes after my Grandad, Uncle and brother in terms of personality and brains.

One of my parents is estranged from their sibling and claims they are dead, except they are not (or weren't when I last checked) so I do wonder if my kids are more genetically predisposed to estrangement, if that's even a thing?

I don't know sorry Lavazza1st, I can't see how that would be genetic. I don't know if estrangement is a behaviour or an emotional response? If it's an emotional response to a bad situation then I think estrangement wouldn't run in families without good reason. If it is a behavioural response maybe it can run in families as learned behaviour but behaviours are usually there to cause a reaction or a reaction too something and it's been learned as a way to express themselves that might not always be healthy?

In some instances I think estrangement is both an emotional and behaviour response.

A lack of emotional maturity can be a reason for not attempting to discuss any problems in the relationship so preventing estrangement. Where there has been estrangement previously, that can contribute toward 'learning' that this is an acceptable way to not deal with any issues.

Our ES's wife estranged her parents before she married our son. They married abroad so her parents wouldn't be at the wedding and only Mr. S. and me were there.

Within a few weeks of the wedding she'd 'reconciled' but since then on at least 3 occasions that we know of, she's estranged and reconciled with her mother. Her parents are divorced and we don't know if she has any contact with her father.

For us, being aware of this emotional roller coaster that her mother experiences, does make us grateful that we are not on this particular ride.

There's a history of this type of repetitive estrangement/reconciliation scenario from both of her parents with their own families. Something that before we were estranged, she would comment on saying she never knew from one day to the next 'who was in and who was out'.

Forgive me Smileless2012 that sounds like a tough situation and one you are probably better off without but doesn't estrangement mean permanently ending a relationship? Is DIL really estranged with a constant back and forth? That doesn't sound very healthy for anyone. I think I'd rather be permanently estranged than have an off and on relationship. Is there a word for that?

@Smileless2012 so sorry to hear that. It sounds so painful.

@Astral my parent that I mentioned above has a history of estranging from people including their own siblings, and they moved house without telling us where! We went for 2 years without knowing where they were. It upset my kids a lot, so could have been that they decided this was how you punish family during that ^ time their mental health deteriorated and one was sectioned. I am now in contact with both DP's and trying to set the best example I can to my kids.

As much as we love and miss our son and GC, we are thankful to be out of it Astral. It must be confusing for the children; one day they see their only GM and the next they don't.

Permanent estrangement is heartbreaking but preferable to playing emotional games.

As I posted yesterday, there is a history of estrangement in ES's wife's family Lavazza and it does make me wonder if this 'taught' behaviour is passed onto the next generation and how many EAC today may find themselves estranged by one of their own children in the future.

Try not to worry about that Smileless2012, I'm sure it's not set in stone that all this pain will get passed on to your little grandchild one day.

I had a search about online and I couldn't find any evidence that estrangement runs in families, more evidence of problems running in post war families and a difference in today's parenting versus previous generations.

So I think it's hopeful that this epidemic of estrangement we see happening has a cure. Especially with all the help and support available these days compared with back then when we couldn't Google an issue and find suggestions and had to rely on experience or example from those around us.

@Astral yes so many families were affected by the war and post war things were difficult even though the war had ended because the trauma remained and there wasn't therapy or internet, so it remained stuck inside. My MiL claims her father died early because he never spoke about his trauma and I think also my GP's were affected by this.

@Smileless2021 I hope it's not passed down. Perhaps it's learnt behaviour? We are fortunate that we are able to discuss the things that bother us and not hold them deep inside like our GP's would have.