Therapists who say parents are always to blame.

OceanMama

I think the conversation might be drifting away from estrangement to more general parental accountability for everything. Linked topics for sure, but my comments are focused specifically on estrangement. Of course sometimes parents are responsible for that. Sometimes they aren't. In my own experience, it's mismatched expectations and the reaction to the disappointment of expectations not being met that drives many estrangements.

Yes I agree. And boundaries - boundaries are really important. It took many years to establish appropriate boundaries with my MIL. Once those were established then I could just laugh at the comments about me. Before they were there then they had the potential to be deeply damaging. Some of the boundaries were around her actual behaviour but a lot were around me - so getting to a place where I genuinely did not care what she thought of me and realising that we do not value the same things.

Anyway we will never be close but we can rub along okay and it allowed the children to develop their own relationships with their grandparents growing up. At one stage I thought we were heading towards estrangement so I see what happened as a success.

My daughter went through a very troubled patch in her early to mid teens and she was frequently angry and abusive towards me. As a mum, she is enduring the same thing now with two of her sons. It is, of course, deeply distressing and terribly undermining. I believed in our shared past and still believe that a) puberty and adolescence are hugely unsettling; b) while young people often present as entitled and demanding, they are also often deeply insecure; c) they will always challenge, anger, abuse the person with whom they feel safest and that is usually mum. The latter is as if their feeling of worthlessness and/or failure – and I truly believe that is often what it is – will be "authenticated" if mum finally rejects them. If the one person on whom they could rely for unconditional love rejects them unless they comply to certain conditions, that confirms the belief and there is no longer any point trying anything, especially family. It justifies them and their troubled behaviour as "right". As far as I am concerned, "tough love" isn't love.

I never did that rejection – at some cost to myself – and I rejoice in the close and loving relationship I have with my daughter now. When I needed to offer comfort when she was on the phone in a great state of distress about her eldest son, I reminded her of my attitude, response and thoughts when her life was troubled, which totally matched hers about her son. She found that reassuring and it helped her. She has a psychology degree, so I reckon "I done good" on both counts.

I am not estranged from my parents or my adult children. My MIL estranged from us. It was one of the classic cases of mismatched expectations. Typically that she wanted my household to be an extension of hers and wanted free reign over the grandchildren. Mine that we were separate households and grandparents were not over continually or making parenting decisions.

I do think parents need to accept responsibility for their failings but children bring their own personalities and flaws to the mix too. They need to look at their own reactions and ways of communicating too.

Over the years I have learned to view my parents more compassionately than I would have in my younger years. They are just as human as I am, doing their best, with their own imperfections, just as I have.

I suppose you could say I do blame MIL for estranging us. I am willing to look at my own part of any of that but I can't feel I did anything wrong by raising my family in my own way. It's not that I wasn't willing to include her, just not in the way she wanted. As I've matured though, I've also come to see that my DH had a role in it through his refusal to communicate with his mother and preference to try to throw me under the bus so he wouldn't have to deal with his mother himself. Then maybe my role is not insisting DH deal with his mother to nip things in the bud. Blame is complicated.

I do understand parents reluctance to assume responsibility for estrangements, as they would anything else related to their parenting practices and personalities as well- But parents that fail to do so more often than not gravitate towards blame and then eventually estrangement-

I think the conversation might be drifting away from estrangement to more general parental accountability for everything. Linked topics for sure, but my comments are focused specifically on estrangement. Of course sometimes parents are responsible for that. Sometimes they aren't. In my own experience, it's mismatched expectations and the reaction to the disappointment of expectations not being met that drives many estrangements.

As parents my adult children have learned to hold themselves accountable/responsible first and then address their children's actions/experience second- This way resistance/deflection is minimal-

No parent can teach their children about everything they will encounter in life- They can apologize to their children for not teaching them because they didn't know themselves- And then proceed to address/discuss what transpired, together-

Madgran, I read Alexa’s point the same way as you - that we are the product of our upbringing being inclusive of peers, class etc as well as parents.

But parents are just one of many influences on a child and in forming who they are. We are a product of how society brings us up, not just our parents (and then there's genetic and environmental influences too). I think we're past the stage where we think that child with problems = problematic parenting.

Yes Oceanmama it is manifestly more complicated than child with problems = problematic parenting. , that is a good point.

Which may appear to contradict my earlier agreement with Alexa but I think I read it slightly differently. I do think we are all a product of our upbringing, of which our parents play an important but not exclusive part. I certainly agree that understanding what shapes our personality is helpful, but I think that that shaping comes from not only our parents influence, but also our childhood experiences, as you say genetic aspects and so on. Certainly parental influences can be overridden by circumstances and/or different people coming into the equation

In the end when it comes to estrangement it seems that each circumstance is different, and although there may be some common and identifiable patterns the specific causes vary according to circumstances and personalities. Parenting is one aspect of a very complicated problem.

Yes OceanMama, it's important to look at the influences. I wish we were past the stage where we think a child with problems = problematic parenting but I believe we've a way to go yet.

"I think we're past the stage where we think that child with problems = problematic parenting" I certainly hope so OceanMama.

Alexa

It's a mistake to live with self blame when that interferes with your progress through life.

It is not about blaming parents, it's about understanding you are a product of your upbringing. Your parents in turn were products of their upbringing, and so on.You love your parents despite their weaknesses and nobody is without weaknesses.
It is actually very helpful to understand what shaped your personality.

But parents are just one of many influences on a child and in forming who they are. We are a product of how society brings us up, not just our parents (and then there's genetic and environmental influences too). I think we're past the stage where we think that child with problems = problematic parenting.

Madgran "it is right to apportion responsibility to anyone, parent of otherwise, who has been manifestly cruel and selfish to someone else" quite so.

Sometimes it is right to blame parents who have been manifestly cruel and selfish to a child.

True. But then it is right to apportion responsibility to anyone, parent or otherwise, who has been manifestly cruel and selfish to someone else!

It is not about blaming parents, it's about understanding you are a product of your upbringing. Your parents in turn were products of their upbringing, and so on. You love your parents despite their weaknesses and nobody is without weaknesses. It is actually very helpful to understand what shaped your personality

Absolutely!

The same can be said for the parents of EAC hollysteers although TBH "hate" is a very strong word and I don't think I've ever seen an EP say they hate the adult child who has estranged them.

Alexa Sometimes it is right to blame parents who have been manifestly cruel and selfish to a child. Therefore one does not love them despite their weaknesses, but hate them for not having the courage to break the pattern.
We do have choices in life.

I'm think you're right AmberSpyglass, but what's of the utmost importance is that the one who takes the decision to end the relationship does so without being unduly influenced by some one else.

If a relationship is harmful then cutting it off or ending it is the right thing to do. I don’t think any therapist would disagree with that.

Alexa

It's a mistake to live with self blame when that interferes with your progress through life.

It is not about blaming parents, it's about understanding you are a product of your upbringing. Your parents in turn were products of their upbringing, and so on.You love your parents despite their weaknesses and nobody is without weaknesses.
It is actually very helpful to understand what shaped your personality.

The most sensible and emotionally intelligent post so far. Thank you Alexa.

What a load of self righteous twaddle WattsIsWatts. Mabye Dr.Phil should consult you for advice.

We also need to take into account that estrangement can and does occur due to a third party. The EAC's partner can be very influential especially if the relationship is coercive and manipulative.

In cases like these, a once healthy relationship between parent and AC can be torn apart and there is little that the parent(s) can do as the means of communication are severed, as is the opportunity to "influence and inspire".

I think you are new to GN WattsIsWatts; welcome.

Behaviours get passed down through so many generations, so that it can be impossible to work out why a person feels,behaves as they do. We need to identify the behaviour that is causing problems and work to change that behaviour. Sometimes the best we can do is ‘water it down’ so that the effect on the individual and others is reduced as much as possible

The way I see it, accountability/responsibility begins with the parent/s first- Much falls on mom's because more often than not fathers walked off, although not always the case- Sometimes both abandon-

But conversations with adult children can move forward more smoothly when parents hold themselves accountable from the outset because it was the parent that chose to have them to begin with-

I looked up those authors and did not see them encouraging estrangement. I found the articles that you are probably talking about. Those article talked about estrangement but they were not encouraging no contact as the only solution to a strained relationship with parent(s). One article I found by Bethany did go into how a woman can harness her inner mother if she has chosen to cut her own mother out of her life. Just because you found two articles that talk about how to handle estrangement does not mean all therapists encourage cutting off parents.

All therapists should guide their patients into making decisions that are best for the patient. Unfortunately, this sometimes means the patient decides to cut out their controlling, manipulative, emotionally immature parent(s) who completely failed at transitioning into seeing and treating their adults children as completely independent adults with their own lives and interests.

We, as the parents of grown children, are responsible for our own actions and behaviors. We have no rights or authority over our grown children. We should cultivate a relationship based on trust and mutual respect and not through instilling fear, obligation and guilt in our grown children. We need to be a trusted confidant and mentor to our grown children. We need to be someone who will support or at least not attack their decisions even if we don't totally agree with their decisions. We need to give advice only when asked. We need to be someone they can come to for advice without being us guilting them if they don't take it. We need to be someone they can come to with problems and know that any confidential information they share with us will be shared with no one else. While a higher level of respect from the child to the parent is not an unreasonable expectation respect must also be freely given and shown from the parent to the adult child as well.

To me your reaction to the articles you found is indicative of a mindset that you want to find blame outside of yourself for the current condition of your relationship, or lack thereof, with your adult daughter. Perhaps you should be reflecting on your own past behaviors and attitude toward your daughter instead of perusing the internet looking for coping mechanisms. Be honest with yourself as to what you have and have not done to cultivate a healthy and mature relationship with your adult daughter.

One must first honestly accept responsibility for their own behaviors that contributed to the problem and change those behaviors before reconciliation can occur. And most importantly, the one apologizing must fully understand how they were wrong for doing whatever bad thing(s) they did.

Apologies cannot be "I'm sorry you were hurt by what I said/did, but I meant well." Apologies must take ownership of the actions and be sincere. "I am sorry that I said/did X. It was wrong of me to not see and treat you as an adult. I was wrong."

As Dr. Phil once said, once the kids are grown and adulting we no longer need to "parent" them and tell them what to do. Our role at that point is to influence and inspire.

Tina Gibertson seems to be supporting people to become reflective - which is incredibly helpful in rebuilding relationships. Otherwise you never get out of the blame merry go round.

Bethany Webster looks as if she is just highlighting the fact that all of us won’t have got exactly what we need from our mothers (particularly in an oppressive patriarchal society) and so we need to fill those gaps ourselves.

I don’t think either are blaming mothers - as already said understanding how our upbringing (both at the cultural and familial levels) affects us is pretty healthy. My mum was a great mother tbh & not at all controlling of me as an adult but I still had to become aware that some of my choices were made because of fear of her disapproval - and I have had to train myself to ignore that.

I am aware as well that my youngest son sees my suggestions (meant entirely as suggestions that he is free to ignore) as criticisms. So I have had to train myself to not make any suggestions for the moment.

If we’re not reflective then things can easily escalate and we can be left feeling bewildered.

Sparkling, browsing the internet for articles on estrangement seems likely to put you in touch with the counsellors/therapists who put responsibility for estrangement on to parents. Usually the mother is held to be primarily responsible. It's a particular take on mother-daughter relationships and not one that a properly qualified and supervised therapist would take
Anyone can do a basic counselling course and set themselves up as a counsellor. To qualify to the level accepted by the British Association of Counselling means a minimum two year Diploma course, during which you have to give (I think) 250hours of counselling and receive a similar amount of personal therapy. The course involves residential weekends and group therapy. It's demanding and rightly so.

Whiff, please don't judge all therapists because your friend seems to have boundary issues.