Having a weak moment

Nell
Don’t worry, I often think the same myself, I suppose I’m frightened that if I encouraged her to talk about it, the flood gates would open, and things may be said, that couldn’t be taken back.

There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

But that doesn't mean that something can't happen that introduces a risk of or actual estrangement to those families

I think it's patterns in families or ways we don't prepare our children for dangers

A pattern has to start somewhere. And dangers can be missed, even when prepared ...it depends on the dynamics and nature of the danger. For example, people find themselves in an abusive relationship ...they didn't see any dangers because none were there to be identified in that loving, caring, person that they thought they knew ...until they realised they didn't know them as gradually and insidiously things changed! Or depending on the style of abuse, that person may have been so emotionally abused they can't see the abuse for what it is! And part of that abuse might well result in estrangement from family/friends etc. In fact that is a recognised factor in abusive relationships!

oops some errors there kind of a guy and he would sulk, not sulked.

Just seen your post @ 9.35 and you made some interesting points that resonated.

Our ES was also a bit of a brooder and 'grievance collector' (love that phrase). His friends often described him as a 'glass half kind if a guy'. He would sulked with friends and his brother but never with us. Well he'd try but I'd always get him to smile in a couple of minutes, in spite of himself.

He was always willing and able to talk about anything and everything and a hard worker, and although he would often need encouragement to do so, was always able to stand up for himself when necessary.

He would always measure his own 'success' against what he perceived to be success on other people's lives, and I often told him that the big house, fancy car and holidays abroad weren't necessarily an indicator of success; they could be indicators of debt!!

So what are you saying Armadillo? Are you saying that if someone's AC ends up in a relationship with an emotionally abusive, controlling and manipulative partner it's the fault of the parents, because there was a pattern of that behaviour in the AC's family or the parents didn't sufficiently prepare their AC for that danger?

If heaven forbid your AC ends up in a coercive relationship and they estrange you, will you ultimately take responsibility for that and regard it as being your fault because you failed as a parent?

That must be very difficult to negotiate day after day Sara. I can understand you feeling both annoyed and worried. It must be so hard trying to appease her sensitivity while not enabling her over reaction to certain situations.

Pretending not to notice seems like a good coping mechanism in some circumstances but do you ever comment? I was thinking about her reaction to her sister having 3 nights in Cornwall while she was enjoying a wonderful 3 week holiday in Florida.

You say "it caused a massive row" and I was wondering how you reacted too and coped with that.

In hindsight I think you might be right Sara1954, with my daughter I'm confident is she has a problem she will talk about it and we will resolve it - we've always had a bit of a 'hive mind' and are very similar in our communication styles and thought patterns.

With my ES despite all his many fine and lovable characteristics he was always the sulker and the brooder and rather than facing problems head on is/was a bit of a grievance collector. He's also inclined to be a bit lazy and likes other people to do the graft in relationships. He likes an easy life So when he met DIL and married her rather than communicate about issues that came up it was easier to appease her by siding with her. Compounded by the fact that she's also the breadwinner I think he hung on to which side his was buttered!

Some people are more brittle, for many reasons. They can sometimes feel squashed in the middle of other relationships and see inequities and slights where there are none intended. They can be quite high maintenance and it's a good job we love them!? All we can do is hope they gain a sense of security about themselves as they mature.

I will add one thing and hope you'll see it in good part. My relationship with one sister completely broke down because she constantly pretended not to notice things ( not just with me) and if pushed about an issue would shut it down and deny it. Being on the receiving end over a long period of time can erode a relationship to nothing because nature abhors a vacuum - where there is a gap in response, people will fill it, mostly with assumptions, negative beliefs and car crash scenarios. I think it's always better to talk and be open, but I don't know your daughter so I'm not judging.

It might be that your sensitive daughter needs to feel 'more' understood and heard. I imagine you're exhausted by trying, but hang in there, if she feels heard, understood and included hopefully it'll be enough to keep her with you.

I feel with some children it’s always lurking.
Two of our children I’m completely confident in saying, that it’s extremely unlikely to ever happen. One daughter, however is very sensitive, often misinterprets things which are said, is very aware of everything needing to be fair, and has periods of being cool with us.
My way of dealing with it, is to pretend I haven’t noticed anything, and things gradually go back to normal,
We once came close when we took our youngest daughter and her children away for a couple of days one year, to give them a bit of a break. Our other daughter and her husband had taken their children to Florida for three weeks and we didn’t think she’d begrudge her sister three nights in Cornwall, we were wrong, it caused a massive row.
We tread very carefully with her, I’m partly annoyed with her, and partly feel worried about her, I just hope that one day she won’t walk away.

Maybe that makes you feel better but it doesn't make me feel better and I don't agree sorry. I think it's patterns in families or ways we don't prepare our children for dangers and I think that is getting better in life and it's even less anyone.

There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

So?
Some families bump along happily for generations, with no serious events that cause one or more of its members to pull away.
Some families have a very fractious dynamic where one or more members pull away following years of disruption and negative behaviour.
Some families bump along happily but an event like a death in the family, or a disagreement about money or property is the catalyst for one or more to pull away.
Some families bump along happily until a new member joins them and the family dynamic is irrevocably changed and someone pulls away.

There are hundreds, thousands, millions of reasons why estrangement can happen. In any family. At any time. To any one of us.

I realise that there are families where there's been no estrangement, I'm not sure about places where estrangement is never heard of, but that doesn't mean it can't happen to anyone.

It happened to us and the sequence of events that resulted in it, could happen to anyone.

Can someone explain that to me because it doesnt makes sense. There are places where estrangement is never heard of and whole families where there is no estrangement so it can't be anyone.

I also think that estrangement can happen to anyone, for so many reasons. Believing that does not stop me finding joy in life but it does make me aware of all possibilities and to not take anything for granted.

Sorry that's just my opinion.

And of course you're perfectly entitled to it.

I don't see it that way because anyone can win the lottery or get hit by a bus but that's luck. Estrangement isn't luck, I wouldn't be estranged if my mum wasnt a bad mum and some people wouldn't be estranged if there werent other nasty people but there are situations where people do choose good people over bad. Or bad over good even if it is hard to see why someone would ever chose a bad person over loving parents. A lot of estrangement aren't luck they are choices people made and bad characters and behaviours that people learned.
My mum said that she hopes that happens to me with my boys and that was a very painful thing to listen to and I wouldn't want anyone to hear things like that. I think if it's upsetting to believe that estrangement can happen to anyone then you shouldn't especially if you already lost someone. It's not right to not find any joy in life for worrying. Sorry that's just my opinion.

Armadillo you only need to look at any of the estrangement threads, on this forum alone, to see how many people, who have hitherto enjoyed close, loving and supportive relationships with their families, are suddenly blindsided by estrangement. Not just between parents and their adult children, but between siblings, in laws, cousins etc. There are so many triggers; arguments, disputes, rifts, bereavement, disagreements about money; it can happen to anyone. No one should be complacent.

It could happen to anyone Armadillo and I think that more people are sadly becoming aware of this, which is why we hear about family members 'walking on egg shells' for fear of becoming estranged if they don't.

I don't think estrangement could happen to anyone I think it happens to some people in some situations. I just don't want to scare anyone into worrying about their relationships.
Relationships can be up and down all the time but if we all worried they might be estranged that would have a bad impact on everything really.

keepingquiet sounds a nice idea. Sorry you are even having to consider the possibility

lots of hugs for you ,, not too bad a response then? who knows, and I pray... that it softens a little of the hard heart.

That's a lovely idea keepingquiet.

Why not plant a tree or shrub for your grandchildren? Why not take photos of it as it grows and when they are old enough send them the album full of photographs and messages you meant for them.
This is what I plan to do if my DIL prevents me seeing my granddaughter, which she has threatened to do.

Friends, after having a good relationship with sons girlfriend prior to marriage after about two years they were slowly but surely moved out of their lives

Versions of that seem to happen quite a lot Sparkling, very sadly. Even when grandchildren are still seen, it can be a very difficult tightrope!

It can as you say Sparkling "happen to anyone" and I feel as your friends do that it can never be the same. For me, if I can't have the wonderful relationship I used to have with our ES, I'd rather have nothing.

We let it go too, to the extent that we moved away to re build our lives. I'm sorry that your friends have had to go through this and pleased that their marriage has survived what is a very traumatic experience.

I have no expectations that our GC will contact us when they're older. Goodness knows what they have been and will be told and I'd rather not know. TBH I really wouldn't want two young men on our door step as a stark reminder of what was taken from us.

Smileless, I have a wonderful Dil, I am lucky , we don't see a lot of each other but when we do it's great and I can ring anytime and we text. Friends, after having a good relationship with sons girlfriend prior to marriage after about two years they were slowly but surely moved out of their lives and don't see grandchildren. Naturally bewildered by this change they tried hard to reestablish contact, not stalking, just trying to get together to discuss things, for whom do you love more than your children, but there was no give, they were out. They fortunately did not let it break them as a couple , they made the decision to let go. As they said, it could never be the same now anyway, too much heartache, which their son knew they would have suffered. The grandchildren are young adults now and I suppose they have been fed some story, they haven't tried to contact this couple. . I do think a some people make assumptions you must have done something bad to lose contact. It could happen to anyone.

I don't think that contacting someone whose said they don't want contact is always harassment as I explained earlier, it depends on what form the contact takes.

If your mum says she doesn't want a relationship with you Armadillo then it does beg the question why she's contacting you at all and I agree that by doing so, she's harassing you.

Those who have been estranged and make contact do so because they do want a relationship, they want to initiate some form of contact to open up the possibility of reconciliation.

We'd hoped better from our ES too Nell and for 27 years he was the best; kind, thoughtful, loving and compassionate. Now he's unrecognisable.