Potential estrangement... DIL side

I think counseling is probably the best path to resolving this issue. I'd go alone if your husband won't go with you because then you need advice about dealing with your inlaws and him as well. These days you can even get it on facetime through your computer.

I share the same concerns RE - the children around the tensions and drinking...
The excessive drinking hasn’t been an issue since my husband mentioned limiting it to after the children are in bed (Christmas 2019). However, their behaviour/tensions towards me became worse after then. The only times their drinking has effected us since then, is one odd middle of the night phone call, a not very nice message (also in the night) - we both thought they had been drinking and also my MIL comments towards my toddler regarding drinking. They live a couple of hours away, so we aren’t constantly bombarded, but the majority of the interactions that we have had in person haven’t been healthy for our family at all, it has put a huge shadow over us.
My husband also no longer drinks excessive to the point that he is sick. He might have a beer a couple of nights a week, wishing the guidelines or just over it.
OutsideDave comment - I have said the same thing to my husband. Whilst I was pregnant last year I was experiencing panic attacks every time I heard his ring tone, associating it with them. I ended up being referred for CBT because I was really struggling with all of my anxiety - them being the triggers for most of it. My family also live far away, so I felt and still do feel very isolated. My husbands lack of effort in supporting me by trying to sort things out was a very difficult thing to process and it still is. He clearly has his own issues as to the reasons why he can’t speak to his own parents. I imagine it’s because they are unlikely to be reasoned with, protest their innocence and place the blame elsewhere (or on me) I have mentioned counselling in the past, it might be worth looking into again.

OP, please take note of what Sparkling above writes.

I don’t understand why you are tolerating your husband being more concerned with upsetting his parents than he is with upsetting you. You and his kids come first. Would your husband consider counseling- ideally with someone who specializes in working with ACoA?

BlueberryPie

Here is what my husband and I did that stopped a whole lot of mess from all quarters through the years:

We made a deal that the two of us came first, with our children. Think of it as an inner circle, with the two of us holding hands and our kids in the middle.

Other people were on various outer rings from that inner circle but NONE within it. They could be moved, say with a new friend becoming closer and being thought of as on a more inner ring or someone who caused trouble being reconsidered and then thought of as on a more outer ring. But no one else could enter that inner circle of our relationship and our family.

Of course you'd need a reasonable, trustworthy partner to do this with. So then, say if one of us had an old buddy who wanted to drag us off to go out to the bars and the other didn't like it, the answer would go back to those rules and the answer would be no. If a relative tried to drive a wedge, mistreated one of us or whatever, no, that would not be allowed. That person would be put farther away from our inner circle as far as needed to solve the problem.

Also, only the blood relative or closer one of us would handle problems we or either of us had with that person. That minimized the upset because the more people involved, the larger it grows.

According to our system, the inlaws would be out, from both of us and our children. From there, hopefully we'd be able to work it out but change on their part WOULD be required in order to do so. They would not be allowed to benefit from their abusive behavior to bypass me and get to see my husband and/or the grandchildren or anything else.

I don't know that this would work for everyone but once we started doing things this way, our home, relationship and life became vastly more peaceful and lovely.

This is what our marriage was like (lost DH 10 years ago) We had no kids but the unbreakable inner circle was a strong and treasured part of our partnership.

BlueberryPie

Here is what my husband and I did that stopped a whole lot of mess from all quarters through the years:

We made a deal that the two of us came first, with our children. Think of it as an inner circle, with the two of us holding hands and our kids in the middle.

Other people were on various outer rings from that inner circle but NONE within it. They could be moved, say with a new friend becoming closer and being thought of as on a more inner ring or someone who caused trouble being reconsidered and then thought of as on a more outer ring. But no one else could enter that inner circle of our relationship and our family.

Of course you'd need a reasonable, trustworthy partner to do this with. So then, say if one of us had an old buddy who wanted to drag us off to go out to the bars and the other didn't like it, the answer would go back to those rules and the answer would be no. If a relative tried to drive a wedge, mistreated one of us or whatever, no, that would not be allowed. That person would be put farther away from our inner circle as far as needed to solve the problem.

Also, only the blood relative or closer one of us would handle problems we or either of us had with that person. That minimized the upset because the more people involved, the larger it grows.

According to our system, the inlaws would be out, from both of us and our children. From there, hopefully we'd be able to work it out but change on their part WOULD be required in order to do so. They would not be allowed to benefit from their abusive behavior to bypass me and get to see my husband and/or the grandchildren or anything else.

I don't know that this would work for everyone but once we started doing things this way, our home, relationship and life became vastly more peaceful and lovely.

This is what our marriage was like (lost DH 10 years ago) We had no kids but the unbreakable inner circle was a strong and treasured part of our partnership.

Hope my post doesn't sound crazy, it's a bit hard to explain. My point was if one of us had a problem with someone, that issue would always come before that other outside person. So the problem inlaws would be out with both of you and your kids unless and until the situation was improved to the satisfaction of whichever one of us was had a problem with them.

As I said, you need to trust your partner a lot to do this though because I could see it not being healthy at all if one partner was over controlling or etc.

Here is what my husband and I did that stopped a whole lot of mess from all quarters through the years:

We made a deal that the two of us came first, with our children. Think of it as an inner circle, with the two of us holding hands and our kids in the middle.

Other people were on various outer rings from that inner circle but NONE within it. They could be moved, say with a new friend becoming closer and being thought of as on a more inner ring or someone who caused trouble being reconsidered and then thought of as on a more outer ring. But no one else could enter that inner circle of our relationship and our family.

Of course you'd need a reasonable, trustworthy partner to do this with. So then, say if one of us had an old buddy who wanted to drag us off to go out to the bars and the other didn't like it, the answer would go back to those rules and the answer would be no. If a relative tried to drive a wedge, mistreated one of us or whatever, no, that would not be allowed. That person would be put farther away from our inner circle as far as needed to solve the problem.

Also, only the blood relative or closer one of us would handle problems we or either of us had with that person. That minimized the upset because the more people involved, the larger it grows.

According to our system, the inlaws would be out, from both of us and our children. From there, hopefully we'd be able to work it out but change on their part WOULD be required in order to do so. They would not be allowed to benefit from their abusive behavior to bypass me and get to see my husband and/or the grandchildren or anything else.

I don't know that this would work for everyone but once we started doing things this way, our home, relationship and life became vastly more peaceful and lovely.

Your initial post suggested the only contact you had was social media, where you were ignored. No mention of alchol. It appears this abusive couple come every month to stay with you, where the atmosphere is dreadful and the consumption of alchol is so bad you contacted AA. Your husband seems a willing participant. I cannot see why you think this is an environment for young children. Some one needs to protect these children, if you don't think this is a serious problem you are enabling it. Forget about what you are prepared to put up with, little children come first as they have no choice, you have. Apologies if what I say seems hard, but those children are witnessing all this and absorbing those corrosive tensions you say is there all the time.

this is looking a lot worse.
so sorry OP.
having them to stay every month for a whole weekend would drive lots of people potty, who have quite ordinary PILs.
i think you have to consider your future, and the well-being of your children.

Sorry, I would be gone by now, life is too short.

Oh, I did get in touch with al-anon - they offered to send me some leaflets. Realistically it’s my husband who would need to own the situation and go to one of the meetings - except that something he is unlikely to do.

We’ve only seen them, perhaps 5-6 times since COVID happened. Those visits weren’t long because of COVID, so alcohol was not an issue then. It was more of the fact that I was non existent to them - very off vibes / accumulation of the horrible comments. Prior to COVID, they stayed with us every month or so, for a weekend. They would drink every time. I remember one weekend in particular when my FIL went to get another crate of beer from the shop. They drink whilst watching sport. I just don’t want my children to be exposed to the level of drinking that they do. They never get drunk, but they arent exactly sober. My mil would regularly tell my baby/toddler “oh your too old for this, just you wait until I take you to my favourite cocktail bar when your older” - I just don’t want that around my children at this age or whilst growing up. Drink seemed to be constantly on their mind... I don’t mind drinks if it’s moderated at dinner or when they have gone to bed - which is why I asked my husband to mention it to them at Christmas. It took my husband some courage to talk to his Dad in the first place about that... there’s some kind of guilt trip power plays that he has with my husband - even I don’t quite fully understand it. If my husband struggled with having a conversation about that, he’s going to really struggle talking about their behaviour towards me. It is likely never going to happen.

My husband used to drink a lot. He always used to have the need to get that one last drink in, even if it meant drinking a pint of beer in 10 minutes before we had to leave somewhere... he is a lot better now. I think, me reminding him that it’s not good or healthy... having children ... and after one too many times that he was sick after drinking too much when my daughter was a newborn - well, I basically put my foot down and said that he would have to stay with his friends if he wished to do that in future - and he does every so often, but he enjoys non alcoholic beers now. Unfortunately, my BIL seems to have a similar issue that went too far, and he ended up needing help for it last year.
These things have been going on for years. It could be a very simple solution if my husband could speak to them and they were open minded and changeable to what we felt comfortable with - neither of those seem to be happening. Added on top, their unkind behaviour towards me. It’s a bit of a mess...

I'm surprised having given so much information you've only now mentioned an alcohol problem Abi. Unpleasant and worrying of course, but could explain some of the more outrageous comments your f.i.l. in particular has made.

"This has also influenced my husband's and brother in laws drinking culture in adulthood too". Are you saying that like his parents, your H also an alcohol problem?

You said your p's.i.l. didn't like it when you asked them to limit their drinking at Christmas; did they refuse? Were you also concerned about the amount your H was consuming?

They shouldn't have to be asked of course and a reluctant agreement would be very concerning but a refusal is another matter entirely.

Your concerns about alcohol consumption do need to be addressed with your H especially, if you make the decision to stop seeing your p's.i.l. and he will be visiting them without you being there.

If they're refusing to tone down the drinking around the children, and you're concerned they're alcohol dependent, realistically they should not be seeing your children AT ALL. You don't allow active addicts around children. They aren't safe people.

You and your DH may like to look into Al-Anon. This is a support group for people affected by a loved one's drinking. Your DH may also like to look into Adult Children of Alcoholics. If F2F meetings aren't possible due to COVID, they may still have literature and online resources you may find helpful.

It’s funny, I am not sure if they became more “controlling” after we had children, something my Dad asked me recently. There is a lot of telling and not a lot of asking when it comes to their treatment towards us. That is applied to a lot of things. I’ve also been messaging my mother in law this week, asking how she is etc over a few days this week.... it’s very apparent that she will speak for days of her no end of issues going on in her life. But the social pleasantries of reciprocating doesn’t cross her mind (as I also mentioned in my post above). It’s like they are in a box and can’t see beyond it.... and yes - some of these nasty comments in the past, they were drinking - I had asked to limit the drinking at food times and when the children are in bed at Christmas - they didn’t like that request - they don’t like boundaries. I have always believed they have had some degree of alcohol dependency. This has also influenced my husbands and brother in laws drinking culture in adulthood too. My brother in law in particular recently had to get help for his drinking. My husband is very defensive about the drinking culture his family have.... because he grew up with it, he thinks it’s normal. The drinking aspect is a whole other problem that I didn’t mention in my origin post because I thought most would focus on that, other than their behaviour.

My husband hasn’t said anything to his parents yet. I think subconsciously, he thinks that everything is ok now that his mum is talking to me via message. He doesn’t see that the whole conversation is blindsiding me/us... I see things quite clearly, but my husband doesn’t see things to the extent that I do. I’m not sure if this can be recovered....

If I didn't say it before, I mean the post above as "in my experience" because obviously I have no way of knowing what's going on in your situation for sure.

My two cents: I suggest starting with a serious talk with your husband about his childhood because tbh he sounds to me like an abuse victim.

His seeming inability to stand up to his parents, even though he's a grown man now and they're disrespecting his wife right in front of him, is a sign.

This weird behavior on the parents part is a common control tactic of abusers, doling out random insults to check that everyone is still under their thumb. (Also, when they do this, are they drinking by any chance?)

If they're confronted, expect all sorts of craziness like wide-eyed protestations of innocence and flipping the script to claim it is actually you who are mistreating them.

I'd also go for a short bout of therapy sessions with your husband because this mess could be quickly sorted out and resolved. Otherwise, you two - and your kids- will be put through this mistreatment and possibly worse, as long as they live. And of course it will cause problems between you and your husband as well.

Personally, I don't think his parents being hateful to their grown child's spouse is a good reason to split your family up for visiting trips or holidays. And please keep your children away from these people in the meantime. Lots of red flags here. Please let us know how it goes.

Yes, I was just an appendage to ‘ her’ family. She had no reason to be pleasant with me once the grandchildren were born.

Look after yourself Abi, and do what you need to do to keep yourself protected and well. Remember, if you’re not right, your children won’t be. ?

Thank you for the extra advice, which I will take on board. I agree that a discussion needs to happen if I decide to remove myself from the situation. My husband would never approach them about it because it would make him vulnerable to everything that has happened. My Mum says he’s stuck in the middle. As we have been talking about it this week, I’ve been in tears over how upsetting it is a d how it’s affecting me emotionally.

Oddly enough my mother in law has been interacting with me a tiny bit more recently (on social media only).... one thing that has alway stood out, she keeps conversations strictly about herself, my husband or the children. I think they are the only people who haven’t asked how I’ve been getting on in the last 12 months, but especially in the last 3 (I currently have a 3 month old, as well as a 2 year old at home - my family also live 4 hours away and my husband works full time, so to say things are tough is an understatement). I am not stupid, and neither are they - I think omitting me in their circle of who they care about is intentional and always has been for the last few years. It’s certainly a beacon from my point of view. I am not even sure how I’d start a conversation of how hurtful their treatment towards me has been as to why I’d remove myself from all situations with them... it’s a black cloud hovering over our family and it’s so sad that it is this way.

They should definitely be told. Discussions need to be had. However...in my experience, nobody ever listened to me. It has to come from your husband.

You could try talking to them yourself, and you should, but I would bet they’ll just ignore you.

Remember your children are of paramount importance here. We never sorted it, and had to estrange to keep our sanity. I wish you all the best.

It seems rather cruel to ghost your parents (general your, not OP specifically). It will hurt them to hear that you don't want contact for a while, or a long time, but it will hurt them to be ghosted too. Then add the worry of not hearing anything and not knowing something is very wrong with you. At least letting them know lets them know where things are and what to expect.

Good advice Sparkling. If you decide to withdraw from the relationship Abi and your H isn't prepared to tell his parents why, or you don't think that he will, then you should do so.

You could send a carefully worded text message, email or letter if you don't want to tell them in conversation but I do think that Sparkling is right that they need to know why.

I'm sorry, I don't think just backing off without saying why is not on really. It's like ghosting someone. Your husband is not willing to talk to them and in a way if that's how he's always been with them I can see he want to avoid an argument. I would tell fill that you find his treatment of you hurtful and unjustified and is having an effect on the children and in the circumstances you are removing yourself from the situation, you won't be visiting or be there if he visits your home. The ball is securely in his court, you will have the outcome you want without the mind games. He should know why and so should your mil. Your husband can continue visiting, it's his parents and up to him. Fil has got away too much and needs to know it. I am so against just disappearing from anyone's life without explains why, I've been on the receiving end and unable to put right something I didn't know I had done.

I’m sorry is he not happy that your not making any effort?!....That would be the moment I stop giving a damn about him being sad and tell him to piss off

Dear me! How would that help the situation?

Abi what a great start in moving things on for you and your husband to have started talking. Clearly both of you are managing to say how you feel, even if what you hear feels unfair or is hurtful. Keep theose lines of communication open.