SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Sorry your son didn't turn up DerbyshireLass but you handled the situation brilliantly, no doubt leaving your d.i.l. fuming and your son confused.

There's a saying isn't there Allsorts about love being blind and it doesn't just apply to those we choose to marry, but is just as applicable to our own children.

It's the curse of hindsight isn't it. If things had worked out differently, if you'd not been estranged and lost your adult child, you'd have been thinking how well you'd done to dodge that bullet.

I could never have bent over backwards and jumped through hoops, it's not just in my nature and my personal history taught me otherwise long before this happened.

We were never given the opportunity but having said that, I'll always believe that our ES never expected us to walk away and not beg and plead. Goodness knows why because he should know me better than that.

It's a game of psychological war fare DerbyshireLass.

So pleased your appointment went well Whiff and you treated yourself to a twirl, you certainly deserved one.

Oh dear some typos and missed words in that last post. Hope you get my meaning. Must check properly before posting.

In that first paragraph I meant we have nothing to blame ourselves for.

Allsorts.....don't beat yourself up. I fell into exactly the same trap, kept appeasing her, metaphorically turning the other cheek. As you say we kept on trying and look where it got us. But we must blame ourselves, we did the decent thing, it is they who are the guilty ones. You have to blame yourself for. Would it have been different if we had stood up for ourselves sooner, who knows.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's easy to say things might have been different if we had been wiser, firmer, stronger or whatever. What's done is done, and can't be undone. That was then and this is now. Once I came out of the shock phase I decided I would not torture myself with what I could have or shudder have done differently,

Chewbacca...,,,you are right. I am sure she is seething and most definitely will be cooking something up. I have visions of her standing over a boiling cauldron, stirring some evil potion and cursing me to high heavens.??.

I am guessing some kind of smear campaign is in the offing, pouring poison into my sons ears, making it all my fault........."see I told your you mum isn't interested in the grandchildren, nor you. If she was she would have been sooooo disappointed that you didn't visit her. As it is she is more interested in having a nap and her precious me time. She cares more about going to the cinema and having a good time."

Yada yada yada ........

She will also be incensed because I didn't say who I was going with.......she will probably be badgering him to know but I didn't tell him either.

Apart from a smear campaign I am not sure what else to look out for, not quite sure what she will dream up next. Her aunt arrives on Thursday so I'm guessing she will be on her best behaviour whilst her aunt is here and then no doubt it will all kick off again.

As you say I will need to keep my wits about me.

Gawd it's playing War Games. One needs to be a military strategist. ??. And me a peace loving ex hippy.

All wise words from you all as usual.

Didn't sleep well last night which is a first since I moved here. It was the thought of being trapped in the MRI . Which is stupid as they can pull me out.

Pre ordered my taxi last week to come at 8. 8.05 no taxi so phoned . Said they where sorting one out. 8.20 phoned again this time in tears. Have terror of being late for anything. And was worried I would miss my appointment. Then taxi came. Got to hospital at 8.50 my appointment was for 9. But it was a long walk to the department and it was 10 past when I got there and all worked up. Luckily everyone is lovely and they where running late. Gave me time to claim down.

Had an ECG and canella fitted ready for the dye to be injected . Had to put a gown on but silly me put it on the wrong way. Should have it opening at the front ?. Lay down and they put electrodes on my chest and then a large plate which was fixed to the MRI bed. Luckily my arms where not strapped down. Had a button to press. All going well then they put me in. Had to come straight out, my nose almost touched the ceiling. They took the largest pillow out and just left the thin one. With the headphones on put back in . This time it was ok. 6" head space and the and the far end was open. Had to hold my breath over 20 times while they scanned . Had the dye injected and this time had to hold my breath longer. I was in the machine for hour and half.

When I am in one place for a long time my limbs stiffen up. So they had to lift my legs off and help me to the changing room.

Because I stayed still and did everything they wanted got good pictures. It was raining heavily when I left so Adam the radiographer walked backwards down the steps in case I slipped as they where metal.

I have been to hospitals all over the country over the last 33 years but the health care I get here is the best I have ever had. I think it's
the way Liverpudlians are with people.

Treated myself to a twirl afterwards. I enjoyed it but think I have lost my sweet tooth.

Phoned my daughter when I got back she said I was a star and she was proud of me. She knew how worried I was about being trapped.

She took me to the Grayson Perry art club exhibition in Manchester yesterday. It was wonderful . Then we had a lovely pizza lunch.

On the way to the hospital talked to the driver as usual. He asked me where I came from and then about family so I told him. He said his daughter decide she didn't want anything to do with him. He said he thought he was having a breakdown he felt that bad. He said it was nice to talk to someone who understood. He blames his son in law for the estrangement.

By being honest you never know if you help someone open up. I can't help but be honest I have nothing to feel ashamed about as I didn't turn my back on my son he did it to me.

I know not everyone feels comfortable doing that . But it's only because of the help I have from you all that I can.

So thank you to you all. ?

I admire you DerbyshireLass, you've managed to suss out her particular brand of controlling insanity and out manoeuvre her at every turn. She must be in a frenzy of frustration now so keep your wits about you. Narcs don't like being outwitted so she'll be looking for something else to use.

A difficult path for you to walk Derbyshire Lass and I wish you well.
I think the term ressentiment and what it describes is spot on in the case if my d Smileless. I think when you are an open person and love someone very much, you are blind for some time to their actions, making excuses or reason for changed arrangements and put downs, I know I did for years. I contributed to bad behaviour because I knew I would be cut off if I challenged it, if I had my time back as I’ve said many times, I would have been strong in the beginning and not allowed myself to be treated that way, she lost all respect for me. I could not and would not treat anyone that way. I worry about the future on my own, but
I will try to sort that out now I know that’s how it will be, many do it without support and I’m not a special case. I do know one thing, I like people and always aim to be kind and not right, sometimes it rebounds on me but I couldn’t do other than what I do,

Our posts crossed Smiles.

Wow thanks for the wisdom you shared from the philosophers, the term "ressentiment" - really sums it up doesn't it. And as you say, the competition it engenders is just so unnecessary. There is no competition.

The love our sons feel for their mothers and siblings in no way diminishes the love they feel for their wives and children. If anything it should enhance it. Love is not finite, there is plenty for everyone

Philistines - what a fabulous description. Spot on. They don't appreciate what they have in our sons and they don't understand what they could have with their MILs and their partners siblings, so they destroy what they don't appreciate or understand. Their jealous rage blinds them....a bit like the old biblical tale of Samson and Delilah.

It's heartbreaking isn't it.

Smiles......I do realise that my reprieve is only temporary and that eventually she will weaken my son to the point where he capitulates. She will use the children as weapons and he would never be able to withstand the onslaught. She's just biding her time, like a venomous spider she is playing with her prey.

I am under no illusions, estrangement will be the final outcome of my story......maybe not for a while yet but it will come at some point. Which is why I am determined to start rebuilding my life now.

I have already "accepted" in the sense I know it's going to happen, it's purely a question of when. If I can try and prepare ahead it might just soften the blow .......a little and maybe buy a little time for my son.

If I can make this reprieve last for a few years, until the grandchildren reach say secondary school age they will at least get to know me a little and can maybe make their own minds up. If they can hold out against the brainwashing which they will no doubt be subjected to over the years.

I am already holding back, not building up hopes and dreams of a happy family dynamic, keeping my emotions in check and my true thoughts and feelings to myself. Just trying to be realistic and practical without becoming cynical and bitter.

It's like walking a tightrope......

Well just as expected.....my son did not come yesterday. A couple of texts, first saying he would be late, the second saying change of plan. Obviously Madams doing, it's her attempt at control and manipulation, This is just what I have been anticipating. It came as no surprise so I wasn't remotely upset and didn't have to feign a relaxed attitude.

Because I had been expecting it, I was able to stay calm and I didn't accept the bait and fall into her trap. I just said "okey, dokey....suits me because it means I can have a nap instead, because as you know I am going to see Bond tonight and I've been told it's almost 3 hours long". ??. Cue another couple of nice friendly chatty texts from said son. No drama.

I'm learning. I can just picture her frustration that I didnt get upset. But by not reacting And staying calm I get to keep the channels of communication open between me and my son. Of course I have also starved her ego in the process and not given her the "fuel" she desperately needs so now she will have to double down and try something else, probably after her aunt has gone back home.

And yes I did enjoy Bond. Very good.

This D.E.E.P. Approach is really useful. Shame I didn't know about it earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of stress and anxiety. but hey, better late than never.

So I shall accept visits with grace and charm when they do actually take place but I shall treat no shows with equal equanimity. There will be no killing of the fatted calf and no running around preparing for the visit. I won't put myself out, if they show up well that would be nice but I'm not going to be putting my life on hold, waiting for them. And I won't change my existing plans or reschedule my activities to accommodate them, the way I did in the past.

I think one of reasons why DIL made him cancel is because she was probably jealous I was going to see Bond and have a nice evening out. I know she begrudges me what she calls my "me time". She felt it necessary to punish me.

They haven't been out as a couple for aeons.....their fault I would quite happily babysit to give them a chance for an evening out together but, as I said in my previous post, DIL is too stupid to realise that by not allowing me the opportunity to get close to the children she has denied herself the resource of a reliable babysitter.

It's not rocket science is it but she is so blind with jealously and rage she can't see the wood for the trees,

In her series of texts last week she imparted some news and asked me to keep it secret and informing me that the only reason she was telling me was that because I have such a lot of experience in the matter they will be asking my advice and help. Grandiose and entitled or what.?.

Anyway I said yes of course I would keep her secret, no problem. As if anyone else really cares but that's part of her problem - she thinks she is so important that everyone is watching her every move with baited breath, (grandiosity, bloated self importance, paranoia).

Honestly once you know how to read them everything becomes so clear. They think they are so clever in their attempts at control and manipulation and yet, as Smiles said the other day, they are so transparent and predictable.

I cannot tell you how glad I am I have found these threads and the two websites I have found (Dr Ramani and HG Tudor). I cannot believe how much I have learned in the last few weeks, as I said, just a pity I didn't find all this knowledge and wisdom earlier. But, no worries, I have found it now and it has given me the tools I need. Hopefully, by using this knowledge and the tools provided, I can avoid total estrangement.

If that is not possible then I have learned that total acceptance is the best way forward. To just accept the situation, not to blame myself and keep ruminating about how I may have done or not done things differently and to not feel shame or embarrassment. That the shame will be theirs, not mine.

As a result of adopting the recommended D.E.E.P approach I am actually playing my cards very close to my chest right now and am keeping several secrets of my own. Who I see, what I'm up to, what my future plans are. Some of those plans are quite radical.....in short nothing less that a complete change of lifestyle and reinventing myself but I've not said a word and I don't intend to.

I am looking forward to the new me and my new life. Like Whiff, I can see and feel myself changing. I am rediscovering the old me, the one that was so lost in grief and sorrow that she allowed her DIL to strip her confidence and almost run her into the ground.

Well not anymore, I have found my voice again and I'm not afraid to use it. No more being her doormat, no more walking on eggshells, and no more appeasement. My son might be cowed into submission but I'm certainly not.

Will she try and use emotional blackmail again.....definitely. She is too arrogant to realise that I wont be bullied so she will keep trying and she will keep doubling down on her efforts. She probably thinks all she has to do is up pressure and I will crack.....hardly. I nursed a quadriplegic husband and all that that entailed. I didn't crack then so it's doubtful that her oh so transparent attempts at manipulation and control will break me.

She might well break my son, she will certainly weaken him and she will no doubt try to use my love for my son and grandchildren as a weapon against me but I won't cave in. She has already threatened me with the "we are your only family routine" and it didn't work in her favour.

I'm guessing she will try some kind of smear campaign next.....but what she doesn't realise is I really don't care about whether or not I have the good opinion of strangers and casual acquaintances and because I'm retired I don't have to worry about what lies an employer might be fed.

Of course we all want to be respected and liked but my view is it is the people who are close to us who are the ones who really matter, and they know us for what we are and therefore what to believe. That's why I feel no shame. My conscience is clear, I know I've done nothing wrong and nothing to merit such disrespectful treatment. The shame belongs to my DIL and to my son for allowing her to get away with it. I do realise he's stuck between a rock and a hard place and that she holds all the Aces but I just wish he would dig deep and find his backbone. It really saddens me to see him so emasculated,

Honestly it's like having your own Megan and Prince Harry in the family.

Quite tired after my night out, so just going to take it easy today. The decluttering can go on hold until tomorrow.

So beautifully put Smiles and very true.

A well done from me too Allsorts. I do the same now, but didn't feel strong enough to do so in the beginning, so for me your decision shows that you are growing in strength, confidence and in your own self worth.

Interestingly, when I was reading the other day I came across a philosophical term that explains the behaviour in d's.i.l. that we're currently discussing. I marked the place in the book, thinking it may be useful at some point and hey presto, now seems an appropriate time to share it.

The term is ressentiment and was first coined by the Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard and later popularised and expanded by Friedrich Nietzuche, a moral philosopher.

It refers to a psychological state that comes about when feelings of envy and/or hatred are suppressed. One's own feelings of inferiority and envy are projected on to an eternal object; another person.

This is what our d's.i.l. have done. They're jealous of the relationship we have with our son's. Jealous of the love our son's have for us and jealous of the relationships we have, or may have in future with our GC.

They mistakenly feel inferior, unable to understand that the relationship between a man and his wife, is not the same as the relationship he has with his mother. It's not a competition, but for some reason they feel they have to compete against us for their love and affection.

It's totally ridiculous of course, like trying to compare apples with oranges, there is no comparison and there's no competition either.

You're absolutely right DerbyshireLass "they are just poor sad deluded fools" and yet I cannot feel pity for our ES's wife or for anyone like her.

Over the years when I read about other EP's experiences on GN and elsewhere, I've often been reduced to tears. My heart breaks for their pain and sorrow.

Sometimes when estrangement hasn't yet happened, my blood runs cold as I can see the inevitability of what's to come.

For me, they're philistines. They are confronted with a beautiful piece of art, our son's, and rather than appreciate and admire what's before them, they destroy it.

I'll never understand why, if she wanted a man full of anger and bitterness, who had no care for his family, why she just didn't go out and find one.

Why did she have to take our boy and suck out all the decency and compassion to make him 'fit'? Why did she have to drag him into the gutter with her when there must have been some already there?

Well done, Allsorts. Good for you. I think it's great that you have thought it through and come up with a plan to move forwards. I think working it out in advance how you will approach the issue and knowing what you will is an excellent idea. I am sure you will find it will help you feel more confident. Just remember to be kind to yourself,

As To why these silly girls behave the way they do.......I believe it's down to feelings of inadequacy and low self esteem. They may seem grandiose and full of themselves but deep down they feel hollow and empty, they are not happy in their own skin.

I can remember my wise mum and aunts telling me that you should judge a man by how well he treats his mother. If he is good to his mother, he will be good to his wife (and children).

These foolish young women seem to forget 3 simple truths,

1. A mentally strong man, who knows how to be gentle with women and children, will be the best husband and father. He will protect and nurture his family. Strip a man of his masculinity (not talking about physical strength here) and his emotional resilience and don't be surprised if, further down the line, he breaks and can no longer be that strong and supportive husband and father.

2. These possessive jealous DILs fail to realise that a MIL can be their biggest ally and supporter if only they let her. When they behave this way they really are cutting off their noses to spite their face. They complain about being exhausted and stressed but won't let us help out and ease their burden a bit. They are so jealous and possessive they fear that if they let us in, we will somehow usurp their position and undermine their authority. This is plainly nonsense because no one can replace a wife and mother.

They are denying themselves and their family help and support. They are making their own lives much harder than they need to be. Grandparents can really help lighten the load.

3. Finally they are setting themselves up for misery. They are teaching their children that people are expendable, that it is ok to use and abuse others and then toss them aside when they have no "value". Well it doesn't take a genius to work out how that will play out further down the line.

These short sighted young women have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. Most of them will end up living thoroughly miserable lives. They will never be content or happy. Their lives will be empty, blighted by envy and bitterness.

This is why I feel pity for my DIL and people like her. Like so many of her kind they simply don't understand the true meaning of love. To them love is transactional, something to be used as currency. They are incapable of real love, they don't recognise it's value so the throw it away, mistaking possession and control for the real thing.

They are just poor sad deluded fools.

From today, if and when the subject comes up, I am going to say if asked, yes I have two children, but estranged from … but prefer not to talk about it. That will stop I hope the social anxiety I have felt for years.
Hughelp, the dil, begrudge the husband giving what they consider their love to the mother. Silly women, lots of them have sons themselves, they will be the mil from hell as and when. If you truly love someone you don’t make them choose.

I have to wonder why all these women want to push other women out of their husband's life. What happened to women befriending and supporting one another (as the lovely ladies do here)?

I just think in the end we have to stop being manipulated because however much you try you will never win against a narcissist, they will manipulate, lie anything to get what they want.
You tend to think that eventually common sense and fair play will put things right, but it’s not a fair playing field, they have no conscience, it doesn’t happen.
I think what Derbyshire Lass said rings true, pamper and believe in your self, it takes time after years of walking on egg shells to walk away and do that, because you can’t if they are involved in your life.

I wouldn't be any good at poker either Allsorts. "Admitting that something so important is finished, can start another way of living" that's a great way of putting it.

I think saying you're a fast learner is an understatement DerbyshireLass.

Some times an AC says something that makes it all worth while. While face timing DS today with regard to our parenting he said "you did good oldies".

Allsorts. That sounds like a good plan, answering questions head on and then closing the subject.

Ha ha. Playing a blinder. .....lol. But I didn't get it right to start with, I did react quite badly at first to those texts. I fell right into her trap, tried to defend myself and it just escalated. I involved my son and that was a stupid mistake. One I won't make again.

However, .....I'm a fast learner and I've done lots of reading and research. Hopefully forewarned will be forearmed and I won't make any more silly mistakes.

It's been a steep learning curve, but hopefully I've picked up a few tips along the way.

What I think is in my face, so for me I couldn’t pretend to go along with someone who was playing me, I would be a terrible poker player. I did say to someone the other week who I was introduced to, when she started asking questions about my d, that I was estranged but preferred not to discuss it.
I think for me that’s the best way from now on as they know it’s a closed subject. I should have done this years ago but it kind of finalised the end if the relationship.
You are so right Smileless it a matter of survival mentally. Admitting something so important is finished, can start another way of living. Thank you all for your insights and thoughts, for me they have been priceless.

It's true, when you tell someone for the first time you're estranged, it's amazing how many are estranged themselves or know someone who is.

99% of the time the first response I get is 'is it his wife?'. When we talk about it, it's like opening the flood gates and giving others 'permission' to be open and honest too.

EP's come here to talk about their own experiences, sometimes it's the first time they've told anyone outside of their immediate family.

We all understand that sense of shame even though it's not deserved. We've all experienced it haven't we, and for am huge weight was lifted from my heart as well as my shoulders when I first came to GN and knew I wasn't alone.

All families have their problems Allsorts we're simply unfortunate that our AC lack the maturity and compassion to want to resolve any issues they may have. They take the coward's way out and turn their backs. They lie to justify what they've done to our nearest and dearest, to us, to our GC and perhaps to themselves too.

Hoovering is a very apt term to describe your d.i.l.'s behaviour DerbyshireLass. It's associated with narcissists who use emotional blackmail toward their victim if they feel that person is pulling away from them.

Nothing you post makes you come across as a horrible person. I have no pity for our ES's wife, just contempt and the hypocrisy is her's, not yours.

Be polite, be courteous and don't worry about her picking up on your real feelings toward her. She knows you know what she is which is why she's made you her enemy.

Your son is coming to see you tomorrow. So far, she's been unable to sever the relationship you have with him so she needs to "love bomb" you. Maybe your son has had the courage and moral resolve to make it plain that he wont be estranged from you.

This invitation could be just as much to do with her relationship with your son as it is about her trying to impress her aunt, and hide her true nature.

In the end though, this is about survival. Your mental survival and the survival of your relationship with your son and GC.

You've played a blinder dear friend. She thinks she knows what she's up against, but she's got no idea, no idea at all.

Whiff....I can't lie either.

I can text DIL and be polite but I don't know how I am going to cope with the lunch when I see her face to face. I am accepting the olive branch and not bearing a grudge but will I be able to hide my distaste for her and the disdain I now feel towards her. .

I know this makes me sound a horrible person, but whilst I do feel pity for her I also feel contempt. I cannot abide how disseminating she can be, how two faced. She will be putting on a show for her aunt and it will all be so false. It will be sickening.

I am afraid I can see right through her facade. Trust me when I say what lies behind that facade isn't pretty. I genuinely do not want to spend time in her company ever again but feel that I have to make it work if I am to have any chance of a relationship with my son and grandchildren.

It actually turns my stomach to think of how I am betraying my authentic self in this way because quite honestly she repulses me. I will need to play a blinder and deliver an Oscar winning performance to hide my revulsion.

Afterward I will have to come home and have a long hot scented bath to rid myself of the stench of hypocrisy.

Allsorts....just echoing what Whiff has said. The shame is not ours, it belongs to those who have treated us badly.

Yes, estrangement does seem to be a taboo subject, until you open up and tell the truth. If you tell your story you will be astonished to find how many others are in the same boat.

Estrangement seems to be a silent epidemic and apparently it's growing, spreading like a cancer. So many people suffering in shame and silence.

I am glad I had the courage to speak out, both on here and in real life. Without exception everyone has been understanding and supportive and many have of my real life friends have opened up to me as a result.

I had no idea that so many of my friends were going through either estrangement or were desperately trying to keep relationships going. It was very sobering to hear their stories and it did lessen my pain a little, knowing I wasn't alone.

Don't be ashamed or embarrassed. Share just as much as you feel comfortable with, you don't have to go into details but I do think you will find that old adage about honesty being the best policy is actually very true.

It does us no good to bottle things up, it makes us ill. If you don't feel you can share with friends and family then maybe seek a professional, just to talk things over with and clear your head.

I feel a little low too this Mornjng and yet I shouldn't. My son is visiting me tomorrow and DIL is all over me at the moment, constantly texting. Very friendly. ?. I believe the term is called "hoovering". No apologies, just "love bombing" as if nothing had happened. It actually makes me feel nauseous because I know it's all fake. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

I just don't trust them now.

Allsorts when people ask me if I have children I always say 2 and 5 grandson's. Which is true if they ask more I don't hide the fact my son dumped me. It was his choice not mine. You would not believe how many people have said it happened to them with an adult child or someone they know.

It's as it it's a taboo subject. And of course it has to be the parents fault couldn't possibly have been our children and their spouses at fault.

I have had people say they lost friends over it as they blamed them. I said well they couldn't have been real friends then.

They think I am brave because I admit to the estrangement I'm not. I am just honest. I don't tell lies simple fact I am hopeless at it. My face gives me away everytime.

It's my son and daughter in law who should hang their heads in shame. I will not . I doubt very much not having me in their lives has made any problems they where having any better. But I am lucky I know my grandson's are loved and well cared for.

There is nothing like ill health for making you low and feel so alone. I know when I lived in my old house and had jaundice until then I had never been frightened being on my own. But I was very scared I needed someone with me 24/7 but there was no one.

So I understand how you feel. You are not alone here . It's not having anyone just to hold you and make it all better. Because sometimes that's all you need and you feel ready to face the next thing.

Happy families is a card game not real life. Families are complicated .

Whiff, you said you knew deep down things weren’t right but you were happy with contact. That’s how I was, thought it was me, I never confronted it, now I look back it all slips into place. I fear it’s taken it’s toll on my son, she has cut him and all family off, just their chosen friends now. He is a good son and if I needed him he would come, but is not into visiting or inviting me there so I do feel very alone and worry for the future. Sometimes I don’t feel as if I have family. After two years of poor health, but getting better, and the enforced solitude I get bouts of being very low. All the activities I did, can’t go back to now so trying to find different interests, find a lot are long established and they are not easy but I will persevere.
I hate the questions after where do you live, do you have children. Everyone seems happy families.

Ditto Smiles and DerbyshireLass. The son I know and love wouldn't have wrote what he did.

That's how I feel. I just don't feel that I recognise my son any more. So sad.

Why indeed DerbyshireLass. Our ES is intelligent and yet like your's has been brainwashed and manipulated by his wife.

He was such a lovely young man, honestly you couldn't have wished for a better son, it's incomprehensible that he could become someone we don't recognise anymore.