Why do I torture myself

Vioketsky I understand your points. I think we are interpreting/understanding/
using the word "responsible" in slightly different ways but that's fine, so be it. . My interpretation /use of responsible is not in any way intended to suggest anything negative, unkind or whatever about your obviously necessary decision to walk away.

Smileless2012 given that you agree with madgran in her interpretation, then my interpretation was the correct one and everything I have said about the meaning of "responsible" stands.

I didn't say you were responsible for any hurt caused to your mother Violet please don't give a 'meaning' to my previous post that isn't there.

You're right Madgran. Thank you for the correct interpretation of my post. I don't believe any further explanation is required as it's perfectly obvious what I was saying, unless of course some wish to misinterpret for their own reasons.

If only were it just a matter of men being controlled by their sexual urges. Coercive control now a recognised legal offence, emotional abuse/emotional blackmail are far more complex.

I have no personal knowledge of our ES wife's vagina so couldn't say if it's magical or not, but she's a narcissist which tells me all I need to know.

My mother was responsible for my care growing up which is one meaning of the word.

My mother is responsible for the reason we are estranged and therefore the 'primary cause' of estrangement which is another meaning of the word.

I walked away based on my experience of abuse and evidence that there was no way this could be stopped or managed.

It's not a decision I am responsible for, it's not even one I wanted to make.

Abuse is always a choice, walking away from abuse isn't a choice, it's a necessisity.

My only other option was to continue to let her behaviour impact my mental and physical health, which as many experts agree, is sadly tied together.

Madgran77 I would assume in the same way that if my mother were continuously punching me in the face, I'd be responsible for moving out of range. As if by doing that I was responsible for any hurt caused to my mother by removing myself from where she can reach me

It doesn't seem the same to me as what Smiless was saying although I sort of get the point.

If one has instigated an estrangement I suppose one is "responsible" for it in that one has made the decision to estrange

However, that does not make one responsible for the experiences/behaviours/reasons for making that decision to estrange. That is how I read Smileless's post and it does not read like a contradiction to me.

Anyway, I am sure she will explain her perspective at some point rather than my second guessing, as will Hithere

Norah I gave it my best shot it if there is a way to use my magic vagina to encourage my husband to clean out the shed, I haven't discovered it yet.

Violetsky I, too, find the term magic vagina a chuckle. As if men are powerless to keep themselves in control? As if women aren't just as interested in their partner? Ridiculous assumption, to my mind that sex has a thing to contact with AC.

Maybe think about sending a card- easier than a letter to send as you only have to write a short message.
Possibly tell him you’re about to have an op, and after it - when you’ve recovered would they consider a reconciliation? Say you’d like to be part of theirs and grandchild’s life.Life is too short to be estranged from family. If they don’t reply at least you’ve tried
I wouldn’t mention seeing photos at this stage in case they stop that.
If they’re willing you could always meet on neutral ground initially, for a short time - play park or similar. At this stage make it clear you want to move on, not rake over past issues.

Madgran77 I would assume in the same way that if my mother were continuously punching me in the face, I'd be responsible for moving out of range. As if by doing that I was responsible for any hurt caused to my mother by removing myself from where she can reach me.

I am afraid you are contradicting yourself

In what way?

Elless all the best for your op

"You have estranged your mother so in that sense you are responsible, but you are not responsible for her abusive behaviour that led to that estrangement."

I am afraid you are contradicting yourself

I suppose it depends whether you're blaming others for your own behaviour, or refusing to be blamed for something that isn't of your making Violetsky.

You have estranged your mother so in that sense you are responsible, but you are not responsible for her abusive behaviour that led to that estrangement.

Mr. S. and I are perpetual victims as we are the victims of an estrangement. A situation that in reality is not going to change and is never ending, which is what perpetual means.

I think we all have some sort of burden to carry in estrangement. Even in the scenario that my mother is abusive (we obviously do not agree on that) I could have conducted myself better and I am responsible for my own actions and reactions.

If I chose not to be responsible then I would be making myself a perpetual victim and I do not wish to go through life blaming others for my own behaviour.

Yes Hithere in terms of "it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't met her, or someone just like her" I do.

She has a history of this type of behaviour, with her own family including her parents as I've said many times.

Allsorts I didn't react to the spinal block, apparently it's one of the contraindications although a very rare one, I've had spinal blocks before that and they went fine. I do prefer these to a general anaesthetic because you feel fine afterwards.

"I've always said that our estrangement is ultimately our son's responsibility but that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't met her, or someone just like her."

So you still blame the female partner from the estrangement then, as if he wouldnt have done it w/o meeting her.

I totally agree that it is not always the partners fault, and that would have been particularly hard to take bearing in mind you'd been encouraging reaching out for a relationship Summerlove.

I've always said that our estrangement is ultimately our son's responsibility but that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't met her, or someone just like her.

smileless I’m saying my husband was accused of changing “under my influence”, when in reality I always encouraged reaching out for a relationship. It kept going poorly so I stopped when he asked me to.

However, the ‘story’ is that I changed him and ruined relationships. That he wanted to keep me happy, so they aren’t as close.

It’s not always the partners fault, and despite what my inlaws might have thought, not coercive control. Simply that my husband and sister had very little in common anymore. The fact that she seemed to dislike me certainly helped the relationship breakdown.

Thank you OnwardandUpward.

It's a terrible thing to see one's own AC change because they've been influenced by others. We feel and are powerless, whether that influence comes from a group or an individual.

So sorry for the pain. I too check social media but never see anything of my GC. All I see is Conspiracy theories, unfortunately. I keep checking and hoping he has come to his senses. Not so far.

I don't think it's always the DiL that is the problem. Many of our sons are quite capable of being awful without any help from anyone else, magic or otherwise! It's very cruel to parade the GC and not let you see them Smileless. I'm so sorry and completely see why you wanted to leave. I would be the same.

I didn't say your situation does have anything to do with mine Summerlove. Are you saying that the term 'magic vagina' was used in reference to you by your family?

Smileless2012

I did not "attack" you about your own experience Summerlove I was critical of the term magic vagina being used, as you did in your post yesterday @ 20.19 "A magic vagina is often blamed these days".

When a poster is sharing their experience of estrangement and citing the role that their son's wife has played in the process, your post is invalidating.

Yet, when it was used against me, by my family it’s all okay?

Seriously, not everything to do with estrangement is about you, or personally invalidating you.

My experience of being blamed by being my husbands wife has nothing to do with your situation.

Sorry about that Smileless2012 I should have directed my comment to Summerlove

"It certainly does happen that DILs get the blame from jealous, enmeshed or controlling mothers and family members they have influence over". Indeed, just as it certainly happens that jealous, enmeshed or controlling d's.i.l. blame their m's.i.l. when in reality they are to blame.