Why do I torture myself

Elless I hope that you find a way through this from his response to your letter.

Oh Elless I hope you get the explanation you're looking for. You've done the right thing especially with your forthcoming operation and not being able to sleep.

It's not too much to ask is it, for the reason(s) why he's treating you this way.

I've gone and done it, I've sent my ES a letter. I've not been sleeping (worrying over forthcoming op) and it's been playing on my mind.
I did a very simple note just asking him what I've done for him to distance himself from me and I told him that now he's a father to understand that the love he feels for his son I feel for him and I don't expect anything from him except an explanation.

M0nica

Smileless2012 theworriedwell's experience is not uncommon. It is what my grandfather's family did to my grandmother and 2 little girls after he died in WW1 and something very similar happened though not quite as drastic, to my DDiL when her father died.

Although not involving death, when a friend's father kicked his wife and children out of the house one evening, never to return, his whole family, who lived locally, ostracised them, including a supposingedly loving grandmother.

So sad isn't it and so hard to understand. My father was so close to his father, he was the eldest and they had such a bond.

On the other hand I have bent over backwards to support ex DIL, have had them in all school holidays, picked them up from school and fed them and bitten my tongue so hard when I see her doing things that hurt the children as I've felt the danger of being cut off from them was worse for them.

You'd hope she would appreciate it but she barely speaks to me, we had them while she had a romantic weekend away with then boyfriend now husband. She was late getting back and phoned to ask them if they wanted fish and chips as she'd get them on the way to pick them up. Would have been nice if she'd offered me a chip for having 3 kids for 3 days but no nothing doing for muggins.

Personal experience tells me you're 100% spot on M0nica @ 12.03.

The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb

I think that is how it goes anyway. I have friendships where we have stood side by side while life was a battle raging around us so it has always felt very applicable.

Oh yes you're right there M0nica.

I think blood runs very thin sometimes.

Shocking behaviour isn't it M0nica I wonder if for some it's taking the 'blood's thicker than water' adage to the extreme.

Smileless2012 theworriedwell's experience is not uncommon. It is what my grandfather's family did to my grandmother and 2 little girls after he died in WW1 and something very similar happened though not quite as drastic, to my DDiL when her father died.

Although not involving death, when a friend's father kicked his wife and children out of the house one evening, never to return, his whole family, who lived locally, ostracised them, including a supposingedly loving grandmother.

Yes Shropshirelass "his life and his choice" what a choice though, to disconnect from your entire family because as you say, they miss out on such a lot, as do their children.

I have an ES too and have grandchildren I have never met, I didn’t even know I had them. It did hurt at first but I have slowly accepted that it is his life and his choice. I try not to let it get to me and get on with my life. He lives a long distance away so no chance of bumping into them. I do feel sad that they don’t know me or even of my existence. My ES cut himself off from everybody, even his Grandparents. He has missed out on such a lot.

Smileless2012

"these slips give a lot away don't they" yes they do theworriedwell.

What a horrible thing to do, a family casting adrift a woman whose lost her husband and a child whose lost her father.

Sadly they had done it when another brother died, ironically my father was the only one who stayed in touch with those cousins.

"these slips give a lot away don't they" yes they do theworriedwell.

What a horrible thing to do, a family casting adrift a woman whose lost her husband and a child whose lost her father.

Family definitely doesn't always last. My father died when I was a child, my grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins had always been a big part of my life but within months of my father's death they had cut us off, well one aunt stayed in occasional touch but that was it. As an adult I met one of my uncles, he said, "You look like one of the family but I can't think which one." I replied, "I am one of the family, I was born a worriedwell just like you were." He gave an embarrassed laugh and that was that. I think he meant I looked like one of my aunts but these slips give alot away don't they.

"I feel we've swung too far to individualistic culture and lost what can be good about collective culture" I agree CafeAuLait.

We're estranged from our son so I know that family ties don't always last a life time. That said in my 60 years I have two friendships that have lasted for decades, so for me it's the family relationships that have provided a constant, supportive and loving solid foundation and continue to do so, despite the ups and downs.

A few years ago following the birth of his second child, our ES told his GM they hadn't had a decent nights sleep for 5 years because they had no family support. We would have helped had we not been estranged.

Summerlove

Hithere

I don't think villages are lost - parents now choose who is part of that village
For childcare
For babysitting
For education
Etc.

I agree.

They are now also able to remove “villagers” who they feel are unsafe or unwelcome.

This feels like progress to the autonomy so many want

Having a village doesn't take away any autonomy. Your paid professional childcare worker is not going to come and have a cuppa with you in the afternoon and provide company outside micro-interactions. Almost certain that if you stop taking your child and paying them that relationship will stop.

I've raised all my children with complete autonomy (not that I had a choice). Still do. I never used childcare or outside babysitters. My village consisted of friends. I didn't mind my situation at all but I didn't feel it was very natural that my family was flung all over the globe rather than having that network. People from parent groups you might go to in order to build a village might not live in the same neighborhood. I've seen the chosen village shift and change frequently as lifestyles change. Other than family, most people change half their relationships every seven years.

The community doesn't seem to be as connected as it was. Obviously there are differences in different communities and some are more connected than others. I feel we've swung too far to individualistic culture and lost what can be good about collective culture.

I admit I'm extremely independent and very individualistic, probably too much so. Maybe it's how I've adapted to never having family or a village growing up. I just don't think it's the healthiest way to be in most instances. Loneliness is a modern plaque of concern even to policy makers. We are communal creatures and need human support and connection. If you are lucky you will find a durable village you build elsewhere. Many do not.

I wish it were different for our GC Chewbacca. Such a large family on Mr. S.'s side, a lot of aunts, uncles and cousins to have loved them as well as two GGM's and of course one set of GP's, me and Mr. S.

Chewbacca is right User7777 bullies do hate being ignored and eventually find another victim. The only way to win is to stop playing.

I'm pretty certain our ES's wife wouldn't agree with me either theworriedwell. Her own family were pretty dysfunctional and she had a difficult childhood. You'd think she'd have welcomed being a part of a loving and supportive family but she seems to prefer what she knows; dysfunction.

Hithere

I don't think villages are lost - parents now choose who is part of that village
For childcare
For babysitting
For education
Etc.

I agree.

They are now also able to remove “villagers” who they feel are unsafe or unwelcome.

This feels like progress to the autonomy so many want

Smileless2012

I agree CafeAuLait and I wonder how many generations it will take to realise what a huge and irreplaceable loss it is.

Your GS and your D are lucky to have you theworriedwell. Your GS for giving him the love and stability he needs and your D for having you there to watch over her son.

It is my ex DIL not my daughter. I'm not sure the ex DIL would agree with you, for her I have given him somewhere to go and if it wasn't for me he'd be home, for me I'm here for him because otherwise I'd fear that he was sleeping rough or he and his stepfather would escalate to something there is no coming back from.

Don't enter into the mind games User7777, you'll never "win", you'll always be on the back foot. Just turn away and ignore it. Bullies hate being ignored.

It's sad Chewbacca because as we grow older we come to see what loving families look like and what we missed out on. I have so many memories of visiting friends and just being in wonder at their home life and wishing they could adopt me. It just took a long time to take away the doubt that it was a really just a show and as soon as I wasn't there it would stop on top of the doubt that I must be a horrible child who didn't deserve to be loved.

It took a while to untangle that in talk therapy.

I do also pity my mother in that respect as she has also missed out on a loving supportive family. Even if that is her own fault.

I despair of AC. Although has returned to my life, the mind games have started. Any recollections I have are dismissed. But their recollections are valid. I always accepted my mum just as she was, even though I didn't agree with her. Its bittersweet to have a dialogue that's one sided. Am resigned to it now

It's more than the things you've mentioned for me

I can appreciate that, based on my own childhood and what my own DC had when they were young. Whenever I saw friend's extended families; aunts and uncles and cousins, all playing, socialising and being happy to just be in each other's company, it made me sad that my DC wouldn't ever have that. Of course, they had plenty of friends, and friends who became surrogate aunt and uncles, and even surrogate grandparents, but they didn't have the blood relatives who loved them and enjoyed being with them. But that was the price that had to be paid, unfortunately.

It's more than the things you've mentioned for me Hithere. GP's, aunts, uncles and cousins were a big part of my childhood and couldn't have been replaced with the friends of my parents.

We had other 'aunties' and 'uncles' too so had the best of both worlds.