Just to see the children

Please go to counseling to learn to cope with this

You have been so lucky to get slaps on the wrist for your harassment and stalking behaviour.
Next time you are caught, you may not be

Itappears I am wrong in so many cases. First about EU GP’s rights and also about abusive grandparents. The only thing I know I haven’t got wrong is giving my daughter and grandchildren my undying love and making them happy when we were together. I have never ever done anything to harm them in any way accept to take Easter presents to my grandchildren which were snatched from them and thrown at me - first warning. Stood with other parents outside school gates to watch sports day - second warning. Wrote two letters to my daughter telling her how much I loved her and missed both her and children and saw my granddaughter at her door and called hello. So, I had two warnings and then interview at police custody station and waiting to see if it will go Crown .Prosecution. I couldn’t care less what happens to me as far as police are concerned. My only desire is to have my daughter and grandchildren back in my life. Since joining this forum, I feel all hope is gone. I thought our government would amend the law an I would automatically be able to see my grandchildren. I’m sorry if I may appear selfish but it consumes my every thought and l’m broken hearted. At 86 and in poor health it’s not easy to make another life for myself . I have cousins and good friends but I’m no pleasure to be with. I used to be full of fun. No more - all hope is gone.

I did what I did to protect my children. It’s a long story, but I had tried with her for 7 years before I called a halt to it. She finally did something unforgivable, and that was it.

I would also say that in the following years, we heard from reliable sources, she managed to alienate her six daughters (on and off), six son in laws, all of her siblings, her mother, friends, and had to be moved from one sheltered block to another because she had the elderly neighbours at the point of rioting lol

All because of her behaviour. So, it wasn’t only me.

But you aren't the parents. At the end of the day people talk on behalf of others. State others intentions, feelings and relationships status as fact. But a lot of it is pure conjecture

It is NOT conjecture when the parents are specifically stating their reasons to me Bibbity...as I said I was working with them, as in working with them on the difficulties and with a focus on the children, not just as a colleague!!

I was not "talking on behalf of others", I was simply complimenting another poster on her balanced and sensitively appropriate approach to a difficult situation or a potentially difficult situation. That compliment to Diamond still stands.

Let's leave it there, don't want to derail things.

You have my admiration DiamondLily as do all those who work in such distressing roles.

I can truly see for a lot of grandparents it must be infinitely preferable to be no contact that to have every action and statement picked to pieces, analysed and found incorrect. I could not tolerate it. It sounds frenetic so highly charged. . Pity you don’t get to see the grandchildren but they will accept their parents behaviour as normal.
I do think we should be like other countries and grandparents have automatic rights to go to court, perhaps looking at the parents role in why they are estranging.

Smileless2012

A very difficult and stressful job DiamondLily.

My brother was on the child care panel, representing children in abuse cases. He did so for a number of years before standing down when the number of harrowing cases he was involved with became too much.

Yes, it does create an overwhelming sadness at what some people can do to children. It’s easy to become a bit bogged down and see everyone as potential abusers, which they are not, of course.

I took early retirement, and it was a bit of a relief to get back to normality. Normal people doing normal things.

It was a worthwhile job, but like your brother, I felt a bit burnt out by it in the end.

A very difficult and stressful job DiamondLily.

My brother was on the child care panel, representing children in abuse cases. He did so for a number of years before standing down when the number of harrowing cases he was involved with became too much.

I worked in a Child Protection department, and was involved with family courts for some years, and SOME parents DO use the children against the GPs, for their own reasons, which could involve trying to manipulate or coerce their parents or in-laws.

It can be simply that one parent does not want the in-laws involved because they don’t like them, regardless of how good they might be as GPs.

The same, of course, applies to SOME parents who have custody of children, stopping their ex or ex relatives from seeing them, because of their own anger, and which has nothing to do with the children.

On the other hand, some grandparents did harm their grandchildren, in a variety of ways. It wasn’t as common as parental abuse/neglect, but it happened.

Every family is different.

I agree Madgran it is good to see the needs of children being given priority in any decision making, as of course it should be.

But you aren't the parents. At the end of the day people talk on behalf of others. State others intentions, feelings and relationships status as fact. But a lot of it is pure conjecture.

And people confuse Parents just not wanting another person involved in their childrens lives as the parents doing it solely to cause pain.

Not in the cases I mentioned above Bibbity that I worked with, but yes, that can be the case in *some instances.

I think weaponise is very overused. And people confuse Parents just not wanting another person involved in their childrens lives as the parents doing it solely to cause pain.

Being estranged does cause pain. I'm not denying that. But that can be a byproduct of the decision. Not the main goal.

Of course, some parents weaponise their children to get their own back for some totally unrelated reasons to the well being of their children. That really is sad. As I said, even if I had fallen out with my parents, I would NEVER have stopped contact between them and my children. The bond was too close, they were wonderful grandparents, and I didn’t need a court to tell me that

DiamondLily You are clear and confident in your decision re your MIL. You are clear and confident in making a different decision regarding your parents if that was ever necessary. That is really good to see, as you so clearly put the needs of your children front and foremost in any specific circumstance

Having observed and worked with numerous parents who unfortunately find this aspect very difficult and where weaponising is so often the outcome, it is good to see and I admire your clarity.

Sweep123

I keep reading how things must remain as they are to ensure a grandchild’s safety. Does that mean all children should be removed from their parents to ensure the child’s safety as the incidents of parents harming their children are well known.
I have never heard of grandparents harming their grandchildren.

Well you might not know me but my father abused his grandchild and is currently in prison for it so I know that there are definitely cases of grandparents harming their grandchildren! Needless to say he would not be let back into my life let alone my grandchildren's and I hope no court in the land would be stupid enough to allow him access! There are always going to be GP's and Parents who harm children sadly.

MercuryQueen the same has been said to me many times on these threads. I have clearly described abuse but I have been told that I shouldn't bring my children into that, that I should allow that relationship, that I am hurting my children by not allowing it.

Even when I have described that my children don't want that relationship I have been asked what my role was in that.

It's incredibly painful but most of us still try and explain patiently why blanket rights would put children like ours in danger.

freedomfromthepast

I am shaking this morning reading your comments and I am so so sorry for what you and your have children have been through.

Please know that it was not your fault, any victim of abuse stands with you and knows the damage they do. Especially abusers who have had their hands on you from birth and conditioned you to accept their behaviour.

My post did not invalidate you freedomfromthepast it was not about your personal experience, unlike the one earlier on this thread which was about mine, and was invalidating.

You have read into it insinuations that aren't there. I said nothing about "good" or "bad" parents and I did not claim I speak for you or everyone, I speak for myself, give my opinions and clarify the law where I can.

I did not say abusive GP's wouldn't go to court, I said it's "unlikely".

I agree that "abuse needs to be discussed when talking about grandparents legally having an automatic right to see grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries", but as that is not the case here, I don't see why abuse and/or the parents need to protect their children, needs to be brought into the discussion when EGP's are talking about their personal circumstances.

It is my understanding in some countries that GP's have the automatic right to go to court to apply for contact, unlike here where the courts permission to go to court is required, not that they will automatically get it.

Smileless2012

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

My children were ages 4 and 3 when I cut off from their paternal grandmother, who was a widow. They did NOT have their rights with seeing their GM, at that age, simply because they weren’t old enough to express an opinion.

Because they were so young, they never really remembered or talked about her anyway. When they chose to meet her (in their 30’s), they stayed an hour, came away, and just said to me they could see why I’d done what I had done. She was still full of bile and spite. They never saw her again, and she died last year.

The Children Act states that “the needs of the child are paramount”, and our estrangement from their paternal grandmother put their well-being first, as it should. The decision was made by myself and their father, and a court ruling would have made no difference to that.

If it all happened again, I would have no hesitation in doing the same thing.

Good grandparents bring a huge amount to their GD’s lives - bad ones don’t.

Parental responsibility is what it’s says, they have the responsibility, and they make the decisions.

Of course, some parents weaponise their children to get their own back for some totally unrelated reasons to the well being of their children. That really is sad. As I said, even if I had fallen out with my parents, I would NEVER have stopped contact between them and my children. The bond was too close, they were wonderful grandparents, and I didn’t need a court to tell me that.

Allsorts

Why does every post on estrangement come back to abusive grandparents? However it starts it gets derailed into abuse.

First, it wasn't the OP heartland who helped her SIL with money. That was sweep123 who revived this thread weeks after the OP with talk about being told multiple times not to contact her daughter and grandchildren and doing it anyhow. I feel horrible for her not being allowed to see her daughter and grandchildren.

She is also the one who said "All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries", which of course brought the conversation to instances where grandparents should not have an automatic right to see their GC.

Abuse needs to be discussed when talking about grandparents legally having an automatic right to see GC. Once someone mentions a law like the EU has, that grants extended family rights to a child, all scenarios must be discussed. It is a normal progression of a conversation on an open discussion forum.

You have made mention of your displeasure of an open discussion several times on various threads recently. I do agree that the never ending cycle between the EP and the EAC here does get old. But until BOTH sides refuse to participate, it will not stop.

I choose to stop reading threads or posts that cause me distress, I highly recommend it. It is very good for my mental health.

So many victims of child abuse don’t identify themselves as such until they have children of their own, and realize that they can’t imagine doing what was done to them to their children.

Many victims truly believe that their parents targeted them, therefore it wouldn’t happen to their kids. Also, there is heavy pressure on forgiveness, “Maybe they’ll be better grandparents than they were parents, your children deserve people who love them, how can you deny your children that, just because of the past? Your parents weren’t good to you, but they didn’t know better, they’ve changed, your kids deserve family…”

Physical abuse is easier to recognize. Psychological abuse is often harder to recognize and recover from.

Smileless2012

Nice try VS but my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone here let alone everyone.

It's one thing IMO allowing the GP in those circumstances to have contact with their GC, quite another to allow a close,
meaningful and consistent one. Especially if that involves leaving a child alone without parental supervision to ensure their safety.

Your post invalidated one person, me.

Not sure why you would think you have the right to talk for everyone on this board by saying "my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone let alone everyone". You don't speak for me and you are wrong about it not invalidating anyone. I am actually surprised since you are usually the one calling out other posters for invalidating you. I would think you would not have drawn such a line in the sand on invalidation.

Despite my issues with my mother, I did allow her to have a relationship with my children. My thought process was similar to yours when you allowed your children to see your MIL despite her treatment of you. I thought that she would never hurt my children despite how she treated me my entire life. I allowed close consistent contact, including sleepovers. I did not even know my mothers behavior was abuse until I was sitting across from a professional at a mental health crisis center with my child. All at once I was plummeted into trying to help my own child as an abuse victim and learning that I myself was an abuse victim and processing that.

At best your post insinuates that good parents would never allow their children to be alone with an abuser and that anyone who does is a bad parent. It comes across as judgmental. You also assume that abusive grandparents would not go to court for rights. My mother certainly looked into it. She thought she had a right to continue seeing my children. Luckily the law disagreed with her.

You yourself have said countless times in the past that no one situation is the same as the other. You know that every experience is different and yet you made a sweeping generalization with that post.

Sweep123

The fact that you are having to quote incidents from Puerto Rico (cruise ship incident) and US shows how rare it is.

Just because you haven't heard of many cases, does not mean they do not exist.

My own mother was so emotionally abusive that it caused one of my children to attempt suicide. She was never physically or sexually abusive to me or my children, and yet there was major damage done. It is a type of abuse that is hard to prove, especially when a child is to young to really articulate problems.

My mother looked into Grandparents Rights. Luckily for my children, she had none. I would have died before handing my children over to her because she had a blanket right to see my children.

This is why when a discussion about a GP seeing their GC and grandparents have "rights" through law, as suggested by sweep, the topic of abuse comes up. It HAS to be discussed.

Of course not all grandparents are abusive. But some are. Not all parents are abusive. But some are. You can not discuss legal rights without discussing all possibilities and that includes abuse.

I expected that would be the case Smileless

I agree Allsorts. The discussion moved onto GP's going to court to get contact with their GC and abuse gets brought into the conversation.

A parents right to protect their children, well not all EGP's pose a threat to their GC

As you say Granniesunite "you can see it coming down the track again and again".

We know that some AC estrange because of abuse and we also know that AC estrange when there was never abuse of any kind, and yet the moment a GP talks about going to court, abuse is mentioned.

The OP hasn't harassed her D AmberSpyglass that is a poster who posted more recently on this thread.

Yes VS I am happy to let what I have posted stand.

It's a step in the right direction Bridie.