Just to see the children

But in this situation it doesn’t matter the reason. It matters that the OP is harassing her daughter and GCs and will get into serious trouble if she doesn’t stop.

Oh didn't realise that smileless,

I agree AllsortsYou can see it coming down the track again and again.

Allsorts it doesn't always come round to abusive grandparents, it comes around to abusive people. Many estranged parents also talk about the abuses done by adult children or their spouces.

Without abusive people, judging by what is discussed here, perhaps estrangement would be far less likely.

Or at least relationships would simply just become distant due to not getting on too well and both parties wouldn't be so devastated by estrangement

Why does every post on estrangement come back to abusive grandparents? However it starts it gets derailed into abuse.

“Nice try VS"

I like that it rhymes but what does that even mean? This is a discussion is it not? I'm still not sure that you understand what you are saying there.

Many emotional abuse victims live under the impression that they deserve bad treatment and that it is their own fault somehow. They don't know what is happening is abuse, they just internalise it. They do allow close relationhips with their own children because they don't think that their child would be harmed.

I've seen people say that exact thing on this forum.

I've seen abused women say it on many forums. "He was making me so unhappy but I thought the children were safe around him and he only took it out on me".

You've even heard it from me, I didn't estrange until my oldest 2 children told me they weren't happy with her behaviour and even though she wasn't directly abusive to them, they witnessed her saying things they didn't like to me and manipulating me into getting her way and they didn't want to know her anymore.

I really think you need to rethink your comment but that's totally up to you of course.

I don't think we need to argue it if you are happy to let what you said stand, I just wanted to check with you that you had thought it through properly first.

It is but only to a certain extent Bridie as there's no provision for GP's who have bee estranged by an AC and as a result lost their GC too.

Nice try VS but my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone here let alone everyone.

It's one thing IMO allowing the GP in those circumstances to have contact with their GC, quite another to allow a close,
meaningful and consistent one. Especially if that involves leaving a child alone without parental supervision to ensure their safety.

Summerlove...that is encouraging and hopeful news.

Smileless2012

just as well for her troubled GD that your friend doesn't regard being asked to step in when things go wrong as being harassed herself MissA.

As I've just posted a GP with a history of abusive behaviour is unlikely to go to court. The first thing that has to be proved is there has been a consistent, close and meaningful relationship with the the GC.

That's extremely unlikely if the parent knows the GP is abusive due to their own child hood experiences. Who would allow that relationship to develop under those circumstances?

I'm just going to say to your last paragraph, that I know that you say by your own experience that adults do abuse other adults and use abusive methods to control and manipulate them.

So this statement either invalidates everyone here and you as well or you must realise that parents who have abused their children continue to do so in adulthood and there are many well known reasons why those children may not wake up to their mistreatment for many years, if ever.

Even when someone knows they are being abused it can be extremely difficult walking away from them, especially if it is a family member.

It can take great strength to put a stop to abuse and heal yourself from that control and manipulation and realise you need to protect your own children.

Sweep
www.courthousenews.com/grandparent-rights-vindicated-by-top-eu-court/amp/

Grandparents still have to go to court. It’s simply that they now have the right to do so.

MissAyour friends story is very common. These poor children have been let down badly by the “organisations ”who should have been supporting them and until someone is taken to court and accused of malpractice …and that will happen one day….it will continue and innocent children will be deprived of a normal relationship with their family. Aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents who would have looked after their welfare.

Smileless2012

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

And how do cases end up at court?

One group trying to impart their will on another. It might be under the pretense of childrens rights, but the children are not the ones starting the court proceedings

Grandparents taking parents to court.

Parental custody is a completely different can of worms

Sweep123

All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries.
I’m sure the EU would have given this great consideration before bringing it about. Then grandchildren could not be used as a tool in some vendetta against grandparents.

How would the grandparents access this? Police?

Children are rarely used as a vendetta. It’s often simply the parents of the children want no contact. It’s not done to cause hurt.

Children are not pawns. Pawns are the lowest pieces of chess. It’s insulting to children to be referred to as pawns

Sweep123

I keep reading how things must remain as they are to ensure a grandchild’s safety. Does that mean all children should be removed from their parents to ensure the child’s safety as the incidents of parents harming their children are well known.
I have never heard of grandparents harming their grandchildren.

Abusive parents don’t magically change once they’re grandparents.

just as well for her troubled GD that your friend doesn't regard being asked to step in when things go wrong as being harassed herself MissA.

As I've just posted a GP with a history of abusive behaviour is unlikely to go to court. The first thing that has to be proved is there has been a consistent, close and meaningful relationship with the the GC.

That's extremely unlikely if the parent knows the GP is abusive due to their own child hood experiences. Who would allow that relationship to develop under those circumstances?

In type it's quite common to use caps to highlight a word or short phrase, not commonly seen as shouting unless it's in whole sentences

Yes, and she always has been, despite the police telling her years ago not to harass her son and his partner.
(She had pointed out to the school that her son could barely stand as he was so drunk when picking the girls up from school)
My friend is the only person in the whole family without so much as a parking ticket.

Because abuse is why these safeguarding practices are in place.

That's very sad MissA. So your friend was stopped from seeing her GC but is the go to person when things go wrong.

When people post in upper case Bibbity it is seen as shouting.

Again, what does abuse have to do with it VS. A GP with a history of abusive behaviour is hardly likely to go to court and if an AC and/or their partner is prepared to make a false allegation of abuse against the GP, that only serves to show just how malicious, cruel and vindictive they can be.

My friend approached many organisations, who did precisely nothing.
She has just been here, telling me the latest in her oldest granddaughters life. .
Beaten up by her boyfriend (who is out on licence from prison) animal cruelty, a crack addiction.
All the things my friend was hoping wouldn't happen when she was stopped from seeing the girls years ago.
The strangest thing?
Whenever the latest crisis happens, my friend is the first person that's called to take her grandaughter in.

3nanny6 from what I remember, your situation is one of the ones where you state that the parents are unfit. In your case I would hope you would do everything in your power to protect your grandchildren. Yet you must know, mere visitation would not achieve that and abusive parents may punish children for that.

I know how possible this is because my father was awarded visitation and I was punished every time I returned home from it.

When we are arguing that going to court causes harm to children, this is something the courts recognise, which is why leave is not often granted. Any good solicitor will explain to the grandparents that avenue is a last resort and not a very successful one. Mere allegations of abuse by the parent will be enough in most cases to have the case stopped or slowed significantly. By the time the process has gone on for even just a year, then it's unlikely that the grandparent can prove a significant relationship with the grandchildren in a final hearing. Even parents are unsuccessful in court on many occasions if abuse is alleged.

What I see and understand, Baring in mind that I wasn't taken to court, my mother was offered to see her grandchildren and said no and my children have never once asked to see her... Is well, the courts will always put children's welfare first. They cannot simply give rights to other family members or children may not be safe.

If children aren't safe with their parents then there are many organisations grandparents can approach for support. Visitation would not help there.

It's just the truth

Smileless2012

It's no good shouting at me Bibbity, it's the law and I am not responsible for the law.

Shout? ??