Just to see the children

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You're welcome Smileless.

Thank you theworriedwell for such a lovely response.

Smileless2012

I've often thought about those words theworriedwell. So painful to think that our ES was never ours, when we loved him so much and thought he loved us too.

I'm sure he did love you, you would have been his world when he was a little boy, no one can take that away not even him.

I suppose it is hard to know what to do for the best now other than to get on with your life. Maybe one day he will see things differently. I know with mine when their children became teenagers they suddenly saw somethings differently.

My eldest son, the divorced one, is the one who would probably be described as being low contact with me at one time. He went through a hard time and of course you lash out at the ones you love. Now his children are very definitely at the difficult teenage years we are much closer. He's already phoned me this morning to ask how we are and relate what GS has been up to.

Your other son must be a great comfort.

I've often thought about those words theworriedwell. So painful to think that our ES was never ours, when we loved him so much and thought he loved us too.

theworriedwell

Hetty58

Good point - I feel much closer to my own children than my grandchildren - it seems natural to me.

It's not just me then. I just feel that seeing my children would always be the priority with the GC as the bonus.

Yes that's how you feel, that's how I felt, till your cut out!

Theworried EstGP talk more about their GC because they know they will grow up and forget them, whereas the AC will be the same, as they are fully grown, The treasure of watching your GC grow gone forever! As Smileless has said, when I visited my now estD & GC, I would be chatting with my D the whole time & thereafter playing with my GC.

I've only heard the 'stories' of GM requesting to have their GC on their own from quotes from MN, which I find quite bazaar & hard to believe. I only look after my GC and have them stay over if my DD asks because she and her H are going out, or when my DD had her second child. Although my eldest GD has ask to stay when she has visited with her mum for dinner as she enjoys staying, being made a fuss of. It gives her mum a little break too.

Thank you VioletSky.

Smileless it was sad. He has no memory of his father at all, he was a baby when he died.

I can't remember who wrote this If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were. but I don't think she ever understood that. I've always tried to remember that with mine but I can't pretend it would be easy if you are a widow with only one child.

You can understand how that can happen theworriedwell, he must have become her whole world when his dad died. Not easy for either of them as you say.

theworriedwell

Just to add I think my late MILs situation was linked to her being widowed very young and making my DH the reason for living. Too much of a burden for a little boy but I think it is an easy trap to fall into. His way of dealing with it was to be a bit ruthless if she overstepped the mark, his view was if she got away with anything she would just go further next time. It wasn't easy for either of them.

I think your husband sounds like a strong man and you are a strong woman who doesn't apologise for having her own thoughts and opinions.

I am going to learn from you

Just to add I think my late MILs situation was linked to her being widowed very young and making my DH the reason for living. Too much of a burden for a little boy but I think it is an easy trap to fall into. His way of dealing with it was to be a bit ruthless if she overstepped the mark, his view was if she got away with anything she would just go further next time. It wasn't easy for either of them.

Smileless2012

I agree theworriedwell that there have been some posts and threads were the focus from some GP's does appear to be their GC rather than their AC.

I also agree as I'm sure we all do, that it's wrong to put children in the middle. That hasn't been the case for our GC because we've never known them. What memories would a child have of his GP's who he saw very little of and last saw when he was 8 months old? None. Same for his younger brother.

It is very different though for GP's who had a close relationship with their GC and very different for those children too.

I know from your posts that you're doing all you can to facilitate your GS's relationship with his mum while ensuring your GS's welfare. Not an easy task by any means.

I hope that one day he will be able to rebuild his relationship with his mum. In the meantime I'm sure he knows that the best place for him to be is with you and that your D knows that too.

Of course there are cases where an AC estranges to free themselves from an abusive relationship, and I truly believe it is not that situation that is a trigger for EP's/EGP's but the language that is sometimes used.

We all need to be careful that what we say is about our personal experiences. When we talk about the cruelty we receive at the hands of the AC who've estranged us it needs to be just that. Just as the cruelty that EAC have received at the hands of their parent(s) needs to be just that.

Sadly, there are some posters who are still trying to get past what happened on the estrangement forum last year. It will I think take time for everyone to feel safe, comfortable and less defensive but I'm sure we'll get there.

I do think I am making some positive steps with GS and his mum (my exDIL) it isn't very many months ago when he would say he hated her and would refuse to speak to her. They have had a meeting which wasn't too bad, I'm sure she hoped for more but a step in the right direction for sure. He doesn't say he hates her now, he just says well she's is my mother. He is adamant he won't go back. Meanwhile I'm being eaten out of house and home, I'd forgotten how much teenage boys can eat.

I wasn't on here last year so I don't know what happened but it is a shame if there was upset.

I have been "stuck in the middle" twice. This time with GS and exDIL and for many years it was on and off with DH and his late mother. His view was she was interfering and and controlling her's was she loved him so much and did everything for him. I have to say there was truth in both views and again my roll was being peacemaker. It was hard as she had no boundaries and it could be really annoying but I had to try and control my reaction because it would just have added fuel to the fire. Being asked about my sex life in front of teenage children was the sort of thing she thought was appropriate! You can imagine how I felt about that.

VioletSky

theworriedwell when I joined the estrangement threads I thought that estranged parents and estranged children would get a lot of comfort from each other. Here we have estranged children who have estranged for good reasons and parents cut off for no reason I thought. Who better to talk to and perhaps get a little of what we are now missing from.

I have come to understand that my reasons for estranging are too triggering and it is aggravating that I haven't just moved on from the hurt as if I am cold and heartless and just dropped estrangement like an axe.

There is actually a huge disconnect between us and it was not what I hoped.

Still though I know that some do value contributions from EAC and that is so worthwhile because estrangement is awful and reconsiliation is beautiful. To achieve that both sides have to listen and really hear each other. Often I think that has to start with the parents because even when their children grow up, parents are always needed to be just that, the parents, the ones who put their child's needs first.

I also know that in this journey through life estranged children too are becoming older with grandchildren and need a safe space to talk and be heard. That's worthwhile to work towards.

I am so glad that you have found a way to be such a sensible middle ground in your situation and you are being listened too.

Thank you, any advice on how I can be a positive influence for GS and his mum would be most welcome.

I agree theworriedwell that there have been some posts and threads were the focus from some GP's does appear to be their GC rather than their AC.

I also agree as I'm sure we all do, that it's wrong to put children in the middle. That hasn't been the case for our GC because we've never known them. What memories would a child have of his GP's who he saw very little of and last saw when he was 8 months old? None. Same for his younger brother.

It is very different though for GP's who had a close relationship with their GC and very different for those children too.

I know from your posts that you're doing all you can to facilitate your GS's relationship with his mum while ensuring your GS's welfare. Not an easy task by any means.

I hope that one day he will be able to rebuild his relationship with his mum. In the meantime I'm sure he knows that the best place for him to be is with you and that your D knows that too.

Of course there are cases where an AC estranges to free themselves from an abusive relationship, and I truly believe it is not that situation that is a trigger for EP's/EGP's but the language that is sometimes used.

We all need to be careful that what we say is about our personal experiences. When we talk about the cruelty we receive at the hands of the AC who've estranged us it needs to be just that. Just as the cruelty that EAC have received at the hands of their parent(s) needs to be just that.

Sadly, there are some posters who are still trying to get past what happened on the estrangement forum last year. It will I think take time for everyone to feel safe, comfortable and less defensive but I'm sure we'll get there.

theworriedwell when I joined the estrangement threads I thought that estranged parents and estranged children would get a lot of comfort from each other. Here we have estranged children who have estranged for good reasons and parents cut off for no reason I thought. Who better to talk to and perhaps get a little of what we are now missing from.

I have come to understand that my reasons for estranging are too triggering and it is aggravating that I haven't just moved on from the hurt as if I am cold and heartless and just dropped estrangement like an axe.

There is actually a huge disconnect between us and it was not what I hoped.

Still though I know that some do value contributions from EAC and that is so worthwhile because estrangement is awful and reconsiliation is beautiful. To achieve that both sides have to listen and really hear each other. Often I think that has to start with the parents because even when their children grow up, parents are always needed to be just that, the parents, the ones who put their child's needs first.

I also know that in this journey through life estranged children too are becoming older with grandchildren and need a safe space to talk and be heard. That's worthwhile to work towards.

I am so glad that you have found a way to be such a sensible middle ground in your situation and you are being listened too.

Smileless I don't know why Yoginimeisje brought you into it. I have always felt you miss your son and that your GC would be a bonus to you. I honestly don't get that feeling from some others, I never said all estranged parents were the same but some of the posts, not just on this thread, do seem like GPs seem so focused on the GC their own children seem overlooked and I think that is sad. As others have said counselling would be beneficial for some.

In the same way some EAC might be unreasonable but there are posts that do show the other side and whether they are right or wrong I don't think it is healthy for children to be in the middle. Someone, sorry can't remember who, said about messages being put in cards that I don't see how the GP concerned could think would be positive.

I can't even begin to imagine how awful it would be to be estranged from one of my children. Sometimes my son who doesn't live near us will say he must come and bring the children as he knows we miss them. I will say it would be lovely to see them but I miss him, after all he was my baby.

I have my GS living with me, he is estranged from his mother because of his relationship with his step father. Hand on heart I can say I do everything I can to encourage his relationship with his mother and his other grandmother. He will live with me until he goes off to uni but I tell him that doesn't, and shouldn't, mean he can't have a relationship with his mother and you know what, it is working. He has met her and he talks to her occasionally on the phone. She has taken my advice to step back, don't push it and let him come to you. I think it was hard for her and it was the closest we have come to falling out but I keep plugging away at it.

I read these threads as I find the comments from EAC help me to work out how to help them through this. I have great faith that in time they will rebuild their relationship and hopefully it will be stronger than ever. Time will tell.

I would have been the same too, seeing our ES would have been my priority and the GC a bonus but sadly we never got the chance.

I do think if an EP/EGP talks of missing their GC more than they talk about missing their EAC ie talk about their GC more, not that they miss their GC more, it's different.

It isn't necessary to break the bond between your child and their GP's just because you don't want to see your parents. There are ways around it as some parents have been able to see and accommodate.

Hetty58

Good point - I feel much closer to my own children than my grandchildren - it seems natural to me.

It's not just me then. I just feel that seeing my children would always be the priority with the GC as the bonus.

OnwardandUpward

Maybe the adult child does feel pushed out sometimes? That might have happened accidentally in our family as my GC were living with us and it's hard to ignore them just because their parents don't like competition.

We would rather that they hadn't needed to live with us because it probably ruined the relationship, with three generations under one (small) roof.

My mother lived with me for some years when my children were small and I think it can be tricky. Probably even more difficult when the home is the GPs as it must be easy to slip into the parent role, I think it was probably slightly easier for me as it was my home so easier for me to maintain boundaries.

Reading somethings on GN does make me feel that sometimes the adult child seems to be made redundant when they have children, look at the upset when some GPs insist on having the baby without the parents or wanting them overnight. I have had 1 to 1 time with GC and have had them overnight, some when only weeks old but at the parents request not my asking or expecting, people vary, my one DIL never lets her children stay even if they want to when cousins are here. I totally respect her feelings which are different to other DsIL. Maybe it is easier for me than it is for people with one or two GC.

No apology from me I'm afraid, not sure what you think I need to apologise about, does it seem something to apologise about that I find it strange that people seem so much more concerned about seeing a GC than about their own child? The child they carried for 9 months and gave birth to? Read through some of the stuff on here, hardly anyone showing the same level of upset about their child as about the GC.

I do think some people need counselling as has been suggested by others. We brought up our children, it is a privilege to be included in our GC's lives not a right.

Not all cases are the same but I do think working on our relatioships with our children is important. I've worked very hard for the last ten years at maintaining a relationship with my exDIL. It hasn't always been easy but we are still speaking and I see lots of my GC so the effort was worth it.

I know nothing about your SIL but presumably your GD has a mother so not sure why he is getting all the blame.

theworriedwell

I can't see how it is good for a child to be in the middle of adults who don't get on. Surely they are going to be happier in a stress free home.

I love my GC but to be honest I would be more upset about being estranged from my own children, the GC are a bonus that comes with them. There seems to be so much focus on GC that it makes me wonder of sometimes the adult child feels pushed out and unwanted.

I loved and cherished my now estD with all of my heart and soul, as the song says I'd catch a grenade for her She would quite often say that she could wrap me round her little finger, and she could, because I loved her so. I know Smileless thought the same about her son.

I agree re the stress free home, you need to say those words to my much loved GD stepdad that has done this horrendous deed.

So think an apology is in order theworried

That can't have been easy OnwardandUpward, I'm sure you did your best

Maybe the adult child does feel pushed out sometimes? That might have happened accidentally in our family as my GC were living with us and it's hard to ignore them just because their parents don't like competition.

We would rather that they hadn't needed to live with us because it probably ruined the relationship, with three generations under one (small) roof.

I think so too

Good point - I feel much closer to my own children than my grandchildren - it seems natural to me.