I'm not playing.

Caleo thank you. It wasn't easy on me

VioletSky wrote:
"Caleo any remorse should come in person and I can't answer how I would handle it if it isn't something that has happened but right now, I feel it is too late. I could forgive her but I don't want a relationship."

You seem to have your decisions well thought out and know your own feelings. I re-read your interesting OP, and you seem to have got all well sorted .

So, had a long chat with a friend last night and I mentioned the advice by (pretty sure I remember right), JaneJudge

I've made a list of people that if their names pop up, I'm going to put them aside for 1 week. Then if after a week I'm still curious I can ask myself some questions:

Are they coming from a place of concern for me or my children?

Are they making statements designed to draw me into an argument?

Are they repeating things my mum has said?

Are they wanting to reconnect with me and the children without involving my mum?

If the answers arent right, I don't answer and I delete it and block that avenue of contact.

It's been too long for any of those things to realistically happen. Once you have been scapegoated and made the black sheep it is a role that is difficult to get out of. So I just need to come at it without hope things wil change and I will be really seen for who I am.

Sorry, lots of long comments, I'm too tired to read than and I've sort of said what I think and that's that really, people make up their own minds.

I will say though Sara that my therapist said online forums work well for talk therapy and can be very helpful as well as a strengthening exercise when you are able to be patient and understanding against difficult questions/opinions. So there is that

I do think that others experiences can help people, even if their estrangements are within a different context. Despite such different experiences and contexts it is admirable when people are able to look objectively at a situation described by a poster, recognise how their reality is for them and support them in the decisions that they are taking.

I think that sometimes in trying to suggest scenarios or things to think about, it can be easy to slip into so called tropes/regularly raised "considerations". Not necessarily seen as helpful by those who may have spent years considering those scenarios/having people tell them to consider them etc. but not meant unkindly and probably inevitable on a public forum, although how they are expressed can make a big difference to how they are received!

People may not relate the relationship that a poster has with the person they are estranged from with their own relationships. However they may well recognise aspects of the pain from estrangement. Or from receiving letters/emails/contact from others they are estranged from.

Discussions like this often seem to end up with people commenting on aspects/feelings that they recognise in their own situation, often painful aspects/feelings. Experiences that have caused them to recognise those aspects/feelings may be different, but the feelings/pain etc seem to them similar and they share those as part of a support network for others and for themselves.

Despite the "arguments" and irritations on the thread, the majority of posters appear supportive of you, acknowledge your trauma and pain and your decisions regarding your family Violet, not telling you you are "wrong" or suggesting you should do something different. I hope that is helpful to you and has helped you to clarify your thinking as you move forward.

Exactly Sara "It's a conversation, not a therapy session".

Spousal influence was the cause of our estrangement Sara. We all say things we shouldn't say, fail to say things we should have said, done things we shouldn't have done and not done things we should have.

That's what makes us human. Our AC will do the same with their children and have already done the same with us. It's the nature of relationships, if we want to have a personal and/or family relationship with anyone, we have to take the rough with the smooth.

You're a loving and supportive mum and GM 3nanny. It's too easy to look back and conclude you were "too much of a walk over" you did not only what you believed to be right, but everything you could to be there and support your D.

Despite this you are estranged from her and your GC. You gave her financial support, maybe at times against you better judgement, but you did so out of love for her and your GC. Few loving mums and GM's would have done differently.

TBH I'm struggling to understand some of the posts here. I wouldn't expect the experience of an EAC who estranged because of abuse to be identified with by an EP who posts here, as those of us who do, are not abusers.

There are similarities when it comes to the affect estrangement has had and the coping mechanisms we use. As with EAC there are EP's who would not want reconciliation with the AC whose estranged them. For both there is the issue of trust, a trust that it could never have been dreamt would be broken, destroyed even and so can never really be regained.

For me, an open forum like GN is not the place for a thread by EAC for EAC or a thread by EP's/EGP's for EP's/EGP's. Last year showed sadly how divisive threads by EAC for EAC can be.

There are closed sites for both. I used to be a member of a couple for EP's/EGP's and I know they exist for EAC. The good thing about GN is that it provides a place for both experiences to be shared, and if this is done properly with maturity and understanding, there is much that we can learn from one another.

For any EAC or EP/EGP who doesn't want to know about the experiences the other 'side' has had, a closed site is the place to be. It's not a matter of respecting boundaries. If boundaries are that important then a closed site provides boundaries as a matter of course.

I sometimes wonder that too 3nanny if one of our GC will be posting about their estrangement from our son one day.

There's lots of different ways to parent that are still good and lots of different personalities that are still good.

It's when you start telling others who are different they are wrong for being different instead of just listening to how they feel and respecting that, that most arguments seem happen, from my perspective anyway.

I’ve yet to read a thread where the subject never deviates in some way from the original post.
It’s a conversation, not a therapy session.

Amber Spy glass : this is an evolving conversation and whatever other posters have said there is almost entirely support for Violetsky. every poster has told of some of their own experiences but the bottom line that comes across is Violetsky
has been advised it is in her own interests that she keeps moving forward in her life and does not revert to any contact with her mum /brother.

I have spoken about some of my experiences with my EAC as an estranged parent, the content of VioletSkys posts are giving me an insight into her life when she was in contact with her mother. I feel sad to say that maybe in 20 years time one of my GC could be posting something simular to her on an internet forum about my daughter. I myself will be of no use to her and possibly may be no longer around.
I am going to feed my dogs and quietly watch some T,V
taking myself into this emotional territory is draining that is why estrangement is so thought provoking.

I personally obviously have no problem with there being a thread by EAC for EAC or a thread by EP for EP and would honestly completely respect that boundary. I understand that perhaps that is needed by an individual poster or a group of posters due to the different nature of the situations and problems that arise from that.

Or perhaps if the subject was helpful advice for one or the other, if I did visit I'd think carefully that perhaps they just don't need to hear things like "but how will you feel if they die" so would at least only go to offer unconditional support to what they face.

Of course the rules state that any thread is open to any poster so it just depends on the respect and thoughtfulness of the individual I suppose.

If people relate my relationship with my mum to their own relationship with their child that would honestly surprise me as most parents here are in their own words, not abusive.

If people see some problems with these sayings and can relate them to their own experience maybe that's a good thing if it helps people see how certain things just don't tend to go down well and better results might be seen if they are avoided.

There is and always will be a vast difference between being abused as a child leading to estrangement and an AC choosing to estrange of course as they are different situations, the tactics narcissists employ tend to remain unchanged accross the board and its always helpful to learn how to spot them as its not always readily apparent.

Actually AmberSypglass the thread's title is 'I'm not playing', an approach frequently suggested too and adhered too by anyone dealing with a narcissist.

'The only way to win the game is to stop playing'.

I don't think you're a newcomer to GN so I would have thought you'd have known that when someone starts a thread, even if it's about their own personal experience/dilemma or problem, as Sara has posted, the thread becomes an "evolving conversation".

I just don't understand why you appear to be insisting that this thread be entirely about the OP as no thread ever works that way and never has.

So rather than trying to monopolise this discussion and make anyone other than the OP and perhaps other EAC feel uncomfortable about posting here, perhaps you could try offering support to others that have also shared their experiences.

Last year we had several threads set up just for EAC, non EAC were at best made to feel uncomfortable especially EP's , and at worse were subjected to some extremely unpleasant responses.

Perhaps you haven't read 3nanny's post this afternoon @ 15.54, if not may I suggest you do so.

Lots to read and respond too but I'm in the middle of cooking our Sunday dinner so will return later.

AmberSpyglass
It’s just an evolving conversation, other people’s experiences may help Violet.
None of us know the answers, only what we’ve learned from our own lives.

This isn’t really a thread about other people’s relationships with their EAC, it’s about Violet’s trauma and how she’s moving on. I think it would be best if we can stick to the subject and support her - there’s a whole sub-forum here for everything else.

Our children are always going to make mistakes and I don't think it's possible to hide feelings, it just takes time to move past it and offer them the love and support they need.

My mother was also very disappointed when I had children but, she was disappointed with absolutely everything and didnt miss an opportunity to hurt me. I don't blame her for my choices because I made them but I do wonder what might have been different in my life if I had been supported at all.

I put up with an awful relationship with my mother for half a lifetime... So I could understand if people would think if she changed I could easily put up with a better one.

I can't though because she wears the face and carries the voice of the person who hurt me and I don't think I could ever feel safe and relaxed around her.

I estranged to protect myself, not to hurt her so I dislike any thoughts of it being justice or a deserved punishment but the thing is, it cannot ever be punishment unless she heals from being a person who used hurting me to feel good.

So it's just not relevant... Even if I have been thinking about it

Sara1954 I soon got over the fact that her education at Uni
was not going to give her the good job good prospects and being able to do any thing she wanted with her life it seems she had other ideas. I settled to the fact a GC was on the way so a gift in itself and good news but was not expecting the other GC
so soon after. Father of the two GC was still involved but they were not "together" Seriously had a word with her as different boyfriends came and went but I made sure the children were always okay. A short while later someone else came along and then the next baby. I was always supportive of my daughter but although not ashamed of her I felt she was too easy towards men and needed to raise the bar and have a bit more respect for herself .
I had my first child at a young age and my own mother was not too understanding although she came good and she was a supportive mum, but I always had thoughts that if any of my children came to me and said I am pregnant I need help
then without any hesitation I would be there for them for which I was and not be critical of what circumstances they are in. I think now I should have set firmer boundaries made it clear that if you keep having children they are your responsibility stop asking me to financially bail you out.
I was too much of a walk over for my own good but eventually the worm will turn and that is what I did.
I have a few close friends that know me well and they ask if I have seen my daughter usually I say no and tell them I don't want to talk about it. They always tell me One day she will want you and will be back at your door, I laugh and say I hope not.

3nanny6
It sounds like you had a lot to deal with there, we had a similar situation with one of our daughters, and I’m sure I said things I probably shouldn’t, and it’s more her good nature, and a need to be with her family that stopped things falling apart.
We always loved and supported her, but had a lot to say about her choice of men, now thankfully in the past.
I know I didn’t behave well when I was young, I know they were disappointed in me.
But my mother could never hide her shame or disgust, when I imagine her, I see her with a sneering look on her face, like she can hardly bear to look at me, she was unable to actually make eye contact with me, she was very dispassionate, I was very unhappy and she couldn’t even acknowledge it.
She makes me feel like a different person, than the person I believe I am, and I don’t need that.
To be honest, I expect she’s relieved she doesn’t have to see me, and she can tell all her friends what a nasty little piece of work I always was, and this proves it.
I don’t care, I am free.

Smileless2012 The thread does seem to have settled down today that is a good thing. It is better when we can look at each others perspectives that way we can find the compassion and support we need.. The comment I have heard in the past is "Think back and maybe you will remember how you possibly upset them" perhaps the comment should have been both sides are experiencing difficulties at least that is a bit more inclusive to both parties.

Sara I think you are right possibly in the early days I would think perhaps I could/should have handled things differently.
I found my situation with my daughter had too much going on at one time and that in itself started an escalation that put
a few problems in place. I was faced with my daughter returning from Uni after studying for four years she had to return home as she was then suffering panic attacks depression and not too well. Okay that I can deal with but then she began associating with a couple of girls that liked to drink she felt it was good to join them. Despite trying to get her to the doctors she then found herself a boyfriend and
put the news on me she was pregnant. I was still repaying a large loan for her Uni accommodation and money I gave her while she was at Uni and she decides she wants the baby.
Any way too long a story she was given a small temporary place after the baby came and following that baby no2 came along within the year. The choices she was making bothered me a bit and all of this started to erode the relationship we once had. A few years down the line and another baby only I am being told all her choices were my fault I had never understood her never supported her and was a rubbish GP.
Too much harsh abusive dialogue can only eventually end communication.

Violet I can see in your situation you grew up with physical and abusive behaviour from your mother so I would not say to you oh just give her another chance. I know a poster said if your mother showed remorse how would you handle it?
What I see on this thread is that you and others have said you could forgive which I think we all can only in most of our circumstances the hurt runs deep and we no longer are bothered and could find our way back to having a relationship. How could things ever be the same anyway.

It does sound Violet Sky as if your mother and you are better apart, I do get a bit cross sometimes to hear there’s two sides to every story, life teaches that it’s not the case very often, some people are just plain nasty, bad things happen to good people, they don’t deserve it. You can have two people with the same life experiences who react differently. One a glass half full, the other half empty.

3nanny6 I think you've hit on the issue there

"there's 2 sides to every story"

I'd never say that to you, it's so impersonal and dismissive.

There are plenty of others too aren't there?

"You must have done something wrong" or "AC don't estrange for no reason" or any of the other unhelpful little sayings that just make your heart jump into your mouth for a moment.

So knowing how they feel should give an understanding about how I felt when my brother said similar things or when they were repeated to me by others.

But clearly, its probably better to not bother to communicate with people who would rather throw stones at you than get to know or understand your situation. People will defend their right to hurt you by telling you you shouldn't be hurt, it's a well known abusive, gaslighting tactic.

We all sometimes need to hear that our behaviour is not OK and get some critical feedback but not knowing someone's story and saying these things? Not the same thing, it's dismissive, invalidating, impersonal and unkind.

Caleo any remorse should come in person and I can't answer how I would handle it if it isn't something that has happened but right now, I feel it is too late. I could forgive her but I don't want a relationship.

I am an estranged daughter, but in no way does that make me think that all estranged parents are at fault.
Every circumstance is different, and adult children are very often are often influenced by a spouse, or even a totally different lifestyle.
As I’ve said before, unless we are talking about abuse, cruelty neglect, I do think that probably there is a bit of fault on both sides.
It probably doesn’t start out that way, but I’m sure we’ve all been in the position where we have felt we could have handled things better, and then they escalate.
To be honest, my own circumstances are different, there wasn’t really a relationship to break down, more a case of mutual dislike.
Surely, we all need to support each other regardless of the circumstances which brought us here.

Yes it was disappointing 3nanny stirring unpleasant memories of what was all to evident last year.

The thread does seem to have settled down today and hopefully it continue to provide compassion and support to those who need it.

As you say it's hard talking about our estrangement in our every day lives with people we come into contact with. Such a shame that you've been left feeling unsure about posting on the estrangement because of previous experience.

It's so good to see you posting and of course there's the support thread too should you feel inclined.

Have come back to read all the newer posts which I have done
and going back it did make me feel that some of the old usual comments started to fly about and things were said that EP are only coming on this thread to talk about their own estrangement and perceptions and really could not have any understanding of the torment that Violetsky has experienced since the e-mail from her brother.
I completely understood that Violet was upset and as their had been no contact from the brother for 3 years it had come as an intrusion into her life. I had told her in one of my posts
keep living your life as you have been doing and do not even contact your family you seem happier without them.

It is the very reason that often I stop myself from going on the estrangement threads because as an EP there will always be someone to tell us that we can have no understanding of our own EAC and nobody elses' for that matter. Posters do not know how that can make us feel, having gone through estrangement which I personally did not want and have someone say Oh there's two sides to every story or think back and you possibly might know how you really upset them does not help me.
I have happiness in my life and can always find something to
keep me occupied and the hardest thing is talking about estrangement to people in my everyday life moments, however when there is an estrangement thread and I think here are people going through experiences like myself (different but still estrangement) and once again the good old kick the EP where it hurts brigade come right out pointing out Oh it is taboo to be an EP this is not the thread for you and that's it for me who can even be bothered sometime to get involved in it.
It was a good thread but then became argumentative and unhelpful to those wanting the support.

You both make good points Sara and Caleo.

It is painful when things that you'd rather forget resurface, be they memories of events or feelings and emotions, but I agree Caleo that it can be useful to review those memories from time to time as long as we avoid obsessing.

As you say Sara the issue of trust is a huge obstacle to overcome. There's nothing our ES could ever say or do that could take away the fear that he could estrange us again.

There can I think be forgiveness without reconciliation. I hope that if I were given the opportunity to do so I could forgive but even with that, I can't ever see us being reconciled.