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Estrangement

The torture of going NC - nobody wins

(131 Posts)
blindedscience Sun 07-Nov-21 03:55:04

I've been estranged from my mother and step-father for 5 years now. I justified the choice as protecting my kids from the same damage I suffered as a child. It was a choice borne of desperation, and no one "won" as a result of it.
I see a recurring narrative here - one of refusal to allow the AC to win by refusing them to establish their own narrative. My hope is to convince you that, if they've truly gone NC, your AC isn't trying to win. NC isn't a tactic - it's a disengagement. They've completely left the field behind.

My story might not apply to you. Hopefully it'll give you some perspective. If not, I simply ask for your empathy throughout.
My family had it in for me as a child. My stepfather did everything he could to ensure my home wasn't a haven and my self-esteem never got too high. It was clear his own child was the one expected to do great things. I learned to evade him, but poor self-esteem meant I was bullied both at home and school.
My mother, for her part, I believe actually cared, but did little to protect me. In the vein of tough love/teaching me about the world, she also prevented me from getting my driver's license, and set up artificial hurdles for me to attend college.
At the end of Junior High School I broke. Low self-esteem manifested as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a scar I carried for decades.
But, here's something important: because of my NPD, I've learned not to trust any of my memories from high school or my early adulthood, unless I can find physical artifacts or other people who can recount the same situation.
As I began to wake up from my NPD and I sought treatment, I realized I had put my early life to bed by accepting it as simply a case of neglect. My therapist, however, insisted that I consider it might have been abuse, instead. Re-litigating situations in this light, combined with my realization that my step-father's disrespect for me never ended, caused me intense distress that I needed my mother to help me work through.
It's at this point that my mother completely failed me. Instead of listening to my story/narrative, and helping me to understand her own version of the story, she shut down and refused to talk to me. Around that time, the family superstar started in with their attacks, and other members of the family began attacking me as well. Their "story" was that I was having a nervous breakdown and nothing I remembered ever happened.
It's not all bad. I had other siblings who confided in me that they remembered the same things I did, and that I got the worst of my tyrant step-father's behaviors, but that they weren't comfortable getting in the middle of the conflict.
I had small children, and they were already beginning to notice the favoritism for the superstar's kids. I went NC to protect myself and them.
And it's been gloriously peaceful. I no longer wake up in the middle of the night seething with rage over how I was treated, and what I feared for my kids. I'm sure my justification of doing it for my kids is only part of the story, though - protecting my own emotional state probably also made the decision easy.
In my own case, my family wasn't fulfilling any function in my life. Individual members were nice to be around, but the family as a whole was toxic.

But, there's one thing I'd like you to take away from my story:
My decision to go NC was borne from an inability of my family to engage with my story. There was a basic unwillingness to hear the story, give me any sort of credit for confronting my demons (which, I assure you, was hard as hell), or consider that there might be any reason for me to be unhappy with my childhood. Instead of addressing that there were very real issues going on presently, they got fixated on trying to refute things that happened decades ago, sometimes just telling me to get over it.
I didn't need an apology (which I see many of you bristling over) - all I needed was someone to tell me a different version of the story that wasn't an attempt to ridicule my own.
I'd suggest one thing and one thing alone if estrangement is hurting you - contact your AC and indicate that you'd like to listen to what they have to say, and hopefully they won't mind if you ask questions. Make sure you listen, and your questions are for clarification and aren't challenging their story. At this phase what is most needed is your listening and understanding their story, even if you make it clear you don't agree with the details.
Believe me, your AC knows you're not perfect. If they've gone NC, it means they've given up on trying to communicate with you. Resolution relies on communication resuming, and you can't do that if you won't listen to or understand their story.

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 13:51:46

Are you seriously telling me that you don't see that saying to someone "if you are certain in your mind" isn't invalidatingshock

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 13:43:56

I am disagreeing with you VS when you say that FMS doesn't exist. Why do you assume when someone disagrees with you that they are pulling you up? Do you not understand how debates and an exchange of views works?

False memories are not restricted to the issue of abuse. It's a sad fact of life that not all those who are guilty of sexual offences are found guilty and there's no way, as far as I'm aware, of ascertaining what percentage of those failed cases are due to the defence using an argument of FMS.

You've made this all about abuse. I have on this thread referred only to our ES's FM's of experiences he never had, but his wife has; experiences VS not abuse.

I never used the word abuse.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 09:53:38

Smileless

I do not dispute anything your son has or hasn't said. So I have not invalidated you.

You simply cannot know what memories exist in his mind.

If he has never accused you of abuse then I don't understand why you are pulling me up. it is false memories of abuse that I am denying and have denied in every comment.

I haven't made it personal to my estrangement. I could say that my mum denies any of her abuse happened. The reason I haven't brought that up is because I know the truth and that's all I need.

I could have used that fact to say, from the beginning, that comments are invalidating me by saying children and adults have false memories of abuse. I haven't done that.

What I have done is highlighted that false memories of abuse have never been proven and that the mere idea that they exist has been enough to get rape and child abuse cases thrown out of court.

As you are probably aware, most sexual violence is committed by people close to the victims. So the idea that people close to the victims could be found innocent and their victims have to exist close to them and never feel safe is disgusting to me.

So you can either hear what I'm actually saying or not but I will not stop fighting against it.

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 09:36:46

If you do a google search for 'Court cases relating to FMS freedomfromthepast there's a lot of material available.

I challenged your stance that FMS doesn't exist VS I did not challenge you on your personal experiences. Our ES has made accusations yes, but I never said he has accused us of abuse because he never has.

"if you are certain in your mind" how would you feel if with regard to your childhood this was to be said to you, if you are certain in your mind that what you claim to have happened did happen.

Offensive isn't it.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 07:48:58

I found the original articleni read and it's horrifying

news.isst-d.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-false-memory-syndrome-foundation/

freedomfromthepast Thu 11-Nov-21 04:30:49

OK, I finally figured out that European Psychiatry is the journal from Cambridge. I was confused and thought it was an organization.

I found the article Smileless was quoting from: bit.ly/3kLTgpV

It does mention getting a diagnosis, but I am still unable to find a diagnosis code in either the ICD or the DSM. Everything I have seen has said that there is no diagnosis for FSM available.

I found very little in the way of studies on FSM, though I suspect that I am not looking in the right places. So if anyone has more info on that I would be grateful.

freedomfromthepast Thu 11-Nov-21 03:26:19

Taking the emotion and experience out of those topic, could someone point me to information of what diagnosis codes the European Psychiatry (Association?) would use?

I did a search and found this article from Mental Health Europe about two different diagnosis models, the ICD from WHO and the DSM used in the US. mhe-sme.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/A-short-guide-to-Psychiatric-Diagnosis-FINAL.pdf

When I am searching for actual diagnosis codes for False Memory Syndrome, all I am finding is that there is not a diagnosis code in either the ICD or the DSM. So am I missing different diagnosis codes used by European Psychiatry?

I am always looking to gain knowledge and since this is a new topic for me, I want to do more research. Thanks!

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 00:06:42

Smileless

I have not invalidated you.

I have made no comment on your sons allegations, I don't understand why he would make them and I detest anyone who lies about abuse. I do understand it must be difficult for you.

I simply replied to a question posed by another forum member with my honest thoughts.

You challenged me.

I did not challenge you.

If you are certain in your mind your son "remembers" you abused him, then that's how you feel.

I've explained why I feel the way I feel about the idea of false abuse memories.

So here we are.

FarNorth Wed 10-Nov-21 23:56:44

I read recently that forgiveness doesn't mean that all is forgotten and everyone is friends again.
Forgiveness means that you have given up the rights you had to recompense for what has gone before.

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 23:47:05

Why thank you VS for giving me your permission. Perhaps in the future you will desist from invalidating and making scornful posts about my personal experiences.

I seem to remember some time ago that the invalidation of your experiences was something you found particularly upsetting so you should extend others the same courtesy.

VioletSky Wed 10-Nov-21 23:41:44

You are free to believe as you wish

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 23:33:08

Well the article from European Physchiatry doesn't agree with you and their findings came from clinical research VS.

"Well I can see that the idea that this describes your son despite other possibilities is more important to you than the fact it isn't in the DSM and that the mere idea of it has been enough to allow predators to get away with sexual violence" A particularly offensive post even for you VSangry.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why on earth a survivor of childhood sexual abuse would prefer to hold on to an idea because they mistakenly believe it describes the behaviour of their EAC, rather than wish it be discredited therefore potentially allowing "predators to get away with sexual violence".

You have just said yourself VS "it is a subject that is still highly debated" and as I posted earlier, clinical research has produced evidence that memories of abuse can be falsified.

False memories come from lies.

I haven't worked with the research but like you have read about it Iam during the course of my degree studies and more recently because of the situation with our ES.

You're right of course theworriedwell "two professionals interpreting the symptoms in a different way" and it was ever thus from Sigmund Freud onward.

VioletSky Wed 10-Nov-21 22:21:35

That seems strange when it is a subject that is still highly debated.

Also when they haven't scientifically tested the idea of implanting false memories of abuse. That just hasn't happened.

Some memory blips happen, it's easy to think you turned the washing machine on and remember doing it as one example, because you have many memories of that.

Trauma memory is strong and there is no evidence memories of abuse can be falsified. None.

Iam64 Wed 10-Nov-21 21:57:08

I don’t need to google it. I’ve read and worked with the research.

VioletSky Wed 10-Nov-21 21:51:57

There are lots of those links, you can Google it yourself. Just look at why the foundation for it was created and disbanded.

Lies are not the same as false memories and false memories are nit the same as fantasies.

Iam64 Wed 10-Nov-21 21:33:00

VS the link you posted about FMS doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

One fact we shouldn’t dismiss, is that people lie. Sadly, so do children and adolescents. Staff involved in the investigation, assessment and treatment of children or adults making allegations will confirm this. Yes, it’s rare, most allegations from children or adults are reality based. Some are not. It isn’t always easy to distinguish truth from fantasy.
The most publicised case I can think of in recent times, is that of Nick, the man whose allegations of a paedophile ring involving senior politician triggered a huge investigation. The conclusion was that Nick is a fantasist. Who knows what motivated him.
FMS or lies, distorted memory or fantasy. Does the person making the allegations believe, or come to believe them.

VioletSky Wed 10-Nov-21 21:00:32

OK, well I can see the idea that this describes your son despite other possibilities is more important to you than the fact it isn't in the DSM and that the mere idea of it has been enough to allow predators to get away with sexual violence Smileless.

So let's leave it there

theworriedwell Wed 10-Nov-21 21:00:21

Smileless2012

Even professionals make mistakes theworriedwell and there are so many trains of thought in the world of psychiatry and psychotherapy that there are bound to be legitimate and well considered differences of opinion.

I don't think it was so much a mistake as two professionals interpreting the symptoms in a different way.

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 20:56:02

on the wrong thread

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 20:55:29

According to European Psychiatry FMS is a diagnostic challenge, but can be diagnosed.

Hithere you had me thinking I was on the thread for a moment theregrin.

Hithere Wed 10-Nov-21 20:48:26

Oops wrong thread sorry

Hithere Wed 10-Nov-21 20:46:52

What is the obsession of this board with conforming to the gender you are born into?

VioletSky Wed 10-Nov-21 20:46:52

Smileless Summerlove posted a question and so I answered it honestly.

I have also explained why it is not in the DSM and doesn't exist as a diagnosable condition.

I have also explained the damage to sexual abuse and rape survivors it has done.

Valid reasons on my part. I'm sorry that they don't align with your thoughts on this but that's just the way it is, no malace intended.

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 20:45:13

Even professionals make mistakes theworriedwell and there are so many trains of thought in the world of psychiatry and psychotherapy that there are bound to be legitimate and well considered differences of opinion.

Smileless2012 Wed 10-Nov-21 20:41:12

I am also a sexual abuse survivor VS and am just as aware of the damage that is done when sexual abuse survivors or rape victims are not believed. That said one doesn't have to have been a victim to understand this, it's common sense.

Our ES has spoken of things he 'remembers' from his childhood/teenage years that never happened, but did happen to his wife, therefore he has false memories which can only have been given to him by her.

Your earlier post didn't say that FMS isn't in the DSM, you said that you doubted the existence of FMS which in view of what I had posted was invalidating my experience. You have now provided a link to support your point of view and I have given an alternative point of view based on a review and emerging issues following a clinical report.