SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

You will have helped your window cleaner more than you'll ever know Whiff. You gave him 'permission' to talk about his own estrangement and that's what all EP's need.

To be heard, to be believed and to not be judged.

What a relief it must have been for your builder DSL to get it out in the open rather than regarding it, as we all did I'm sure, as a dirty secret. Silenced by our shame and fear of being judged and actually being judged by some.

You'll remember this book Yogin because you told us abou it years ago. 'Abandoned Parents: The Devil's Dilemma* it's by Sharon Ann Widley Whiff and is available on amazon.

It's the only book that ever made any sense to me. She continues to be estranged by more than one of her children (we are still in touch with her) and when I read it, I felt as if she had been sitting on my shoulder the entire time. She knew exactly what we'd been going through.

It's real and for that reason can make for uncomfortable reading. There's no attempt to sugar coat this bitter pill. The book despite there not being a 'happy ending' IMO is empowering and validating.

Christmas does seem to be a popular time to deal the final blow Yogin. Ours came Christmas Eve 2012 with the small gift we'd bought for our GS's first Christmas forced back through our letter box with a hand written note from our ES telling us we were no longer a part of his and our GC's lives and were to stay away.

I still have the present, a book 'Twas the Night Before Christmas' wrapped in what remains of the shredded wrapping paper and the note that accompanied it.

A drawer's a good place for it Onward. Your son exhibits the tell tale signs of a coercive, controlling and manipulating person. Keeping you and others away who would be a positive person in his wife's life and shine the spotlight on his behaviour that he wants to keep hidden.

Getting to the point where you can be simply be honest with others about your son is a huge achievement.

It's good to know that your GP and counsellor 'get it' Sweep. When we know that there are people who do, we are able to disregard any judgemental and/or hurtful comments from those that don't.

We had a lovely day yesterday. Lunch out and DS face timed Mr. S. to wish him a happy birthday which was a real joy because he doesn't always remember.

It's almost 2 years since we last went to Aus. and we wont be going next year. I miss him so much it hurts and I always ask him to say 'mum' just before we end the conversation because I miss that word so much too.

Oh Whiff, so sorry to hear that. What an idiot splashing lies all over Facebook! So glad your daughter protected you! Thank goodness for loyal and loving kids!

So sorry about being cut out just before Christmas Yogini, that's so painful. At least the gifts can be passed on. I recently passed on some things I bought my GC to another tiny person in our family.... It just brings me comfort that they are being used.

I stupidly thought that by sending on my son & diL's post to them and sending a birthday gift to them that they would magically start talking to us again. It's only been since Easter that they cut us off, so I think I was in disbelief for most of this year. As the year draws to a close though and all the birthday gifts have been ignored by my son, all attempts at contact have been ignored by my son...I probably won't buy him or his wife anything for Christmas. I am considering still buying a gift for my GC because it will make them happy, even if they don't know who it's from. What would you do about this ladies? Nothing I've sent has been turned away, my son has not acknowledged it but his wife did.

I feel bad that my DiL will not get a lovely gift this year like she did last year, but the way my son is acting I don't think I can send either of them anything. I would like to send her something because she's the only one who has made effort and sent me pics too, but it's my son I need to build bridges with and that would only make him more angry. I don't know exactly what he has been saying about me, but I'm hurt and going to stop making an effort with him. Perhaps that will make him miss what he had? Who knows, but maybe I'll spend the money on a Spa day for myself God knows after this year I deserve it!!

Morning all and thank you for all your kind words.

Felt quite numb about it all yesterday, chatted to my D&S about it, but no lighting of candles this year.

Hope Mr.S had a good birthday yesterday Smiles and that you are enjoying your lodge retreat with your dear doggies.

I too would read all the 'experts' books on estrangement, but wouldn't read any now, they make no difference. I read a nice fictional novel for a bit of escapism.

I was cut out just before Xmas, seems a popular time to get rid of loving P/GP. Still have their Xmas gifts in the attic. Will give them to my neighbours C as they are the right ages for them.

Smiles forgot to wish Mr S happy birthday. Hope he had a wonderful day with you. And you are having a relaxing holiday. ??

DerbyshireLass hope you are feeling more yourself today. We all have wobbles. If you don't feel well that seems to make it worse or it does for me also makes me miss my husband more. Double wobble.

OnwardandUpward my daughter and brother kept at lot about my son and daughter in law from me all the lies they told. They are both very protective of me. It was only after the letter in August last year they told me all the things that they had hidden from me. Note to our children if you don't want your lies found out don't splash them all across Facebook.

When my son sent his sister the email in May she washed her hands of him. Things have been strained between them for years. My daughter never got on with my daughter in law. They didn't like eachother from the start 17 years ago. My brother always said it was jealousy on my daughter in law's part. My daughter always thought she was stupid and her brother could do better.

Spring it's not an easy thing to come to terms with that a child you carried, loved and cherished could turn against you. That they could say such cruel, hurtful lies about you. Making out you are the villain . The wicked horrible parent or parents they have to protect their family from you.

Also in my case and others they where cowards and did it in a cruel way. I never thought my son could be so cruel and cowardly. He was always so loving and caring. Both our children could talk to us then just me after their dad died about anything.

My son knows what my dad's and husband's upbringing was like. He knew his grandmother she out lived his dad by 11 years. He saw the differences between how she treated us and my parents. He knows what a bad mother, mother in law and grandmother was like. He knows how she treated us all. But like I have said my husband would never give up on his parents know matter what they said and did. They didn't deserve to have such a wonderful son. Because he asked me to look after his mom I did . And I hated her.

Seems my daughter in law has hated me for years. But you know what I am a far better person than she is . I hated my in laws but always treated them well and they always saw their grandchildren. She can't say the same.

Because I can be honest here and get all the support I have had and still get. If people ask about my family I am honest. I have nothing to feel ashamed or guilty about. It's my son and daughter in law who should feel ashamed and guilty about the way they have treated me. Makes me wonder what they tell people if they are asked about family?

I refuse to read any books or articles written by so call experts as they always blame the parents. Also I have yet to see one that has been written by someone who has and is going through estrangement from a child or children.

It takes time but we will all become Warrior Queens. An army of them.

Thanks for the welcome Smileless. Love reading about all you warrior queens! Not quite there myself yet, and today triggered once again by news of our EC…..but recognising we also bounce back more quickly now. Will never understand the sheer cruelty or psychology of blanking/estranging folk who aren’t a threat to you though. Fortunately my counsellor and GP did get it, but agree too often as parents we shoulder all the blame. Grateful for the solidarity here….cheering us all on in our coping strategies. We do have choices left, the main one being to live as full and satisfying a life as we can. Life can be good even with E. Taken me a long time to believe this!

Oh Derbyshirelass, well done for sharing it! I also shared it with a new friend recently and she said she had a friend who had just been abandoned by their son. It's good your builder asked about your son and good that you also could listen to him. So sad he is heartbroken too.

I'm surprised that so many therapists portray us that way. I was having therapy (basic NHS counselling CBT stuff) just after this happened and the therapist basically said "Don't think about it" which REALLY shocked me. I said, "you're basically telling me to not think about something that's really bothering me!" He did not have any kind of answer EXCEPT don't think about it. I did give up on that counselling! I didn't realise that he may have thought it my fault

I believe you Derbyshiregirl, because it was my son who started avoiding me. First he tried to stop me talking to my DiL while they were living in our house and tried to stop me spending time with my GC while they lived in our house. The atmosphere was very bad and nothing had happened to cause this that I am aware of except my DiL and I had become friendly. The same thing happened when my son had a GF who used to spend a lot of time here once. He got absolutely irate that we used to get along. I asked him once if he would prefer we didn't and he said yes!

I've kept quiet about a lot of this, but I believe the reason he isn't talking to me is to keep me away from his wife because he doesn't want her to tell me anything about what he's doing. I'm glad they don't live with us now because he ruined the atmosphere in our home trying to use the GC against us because I would not agree to ignore his wife and treat her badly. I always treated her like a daughter, rather than a daughter in law. That is my crime. Oh and not being controlled by him, doing what he said.

Yes my youngest is protective. I feel sad for him that he can't have a relationship with his brother, but he doesn't want anything to do with him. Reading between the lines, I think his brother must have said some very hurtful things about us and my son is disgusted. I'm glad you have a protective child too! I don't want to have favourites, but my youngest is very loyal. I love them in different ways, but at the same time I'm chilled to the bone with the hatred shown me by my ES just because I will not let him abuse and control me.

I have been telling new friends because when they ask me about my kids, I don't see any point hiding it.

Onwards......your second son is being very protective of you, just like mine is of me. Bless their hearts,

Same thing happened with my builder. It was a couple of weeks after everything blew up for me. My builder knows my son and he was just asking after him, as you do. I told him the sorry tale and he told me the saga of his daughter. Same tale of woe.

My builder is a lovely guy, always cheerful, with a ready smile and a cheeky joke but I saw behind the mask that day. He is heartbroken. He told me he never talks about it, not even to his second wife (not his daughters mother). Says he just can't.

So yes, Whiff I think you're right - we Warrior Queens are helping others by being so honest and transparent. It is as if by speaking our truth, it gives others permission to open up. So many people suffer in silence because they feel shame or they fear that they will be (mis)judged.

Onwards you're right on the money........the world needs to know.

In my search, asking Professor Google, reading pretty extensively, it is astonishing how even many therapists and psychologists just don't get it. Many of them imply it's our fault, that we must have caused the problem due to our bad parenting.

Ok I will concede that, in some cases, yes it does happen that way. However, I'm getting just a little tired of being portrayed as a jealous, possessive mother and overbearing MIL.

Like you say Whiff......they were the ones to initiate hostilities. I did not start the war with my DIL, she did.

If I ever have doubted myself at times I only have to listen to so many stories that reflect my own experience to realise that it's not me and I'm not alone.......it seems there are legions of us.

Aww Smileless I'm so sorry for this anniversary. That has truly been a long road to walk.

I'm so sorry this had to happen to you and Mr S, but also so glad you are here, if that makes sense. I hope Mr S is having a lovely birthday.

Smileless, I decided the put the DVLA letter in a drawer and forget about it since when I told my youngest he recalled a conversation in which my ES said I was stupid. I asked him for the context but he didnt want to say. He doesn't talk to his brother and has ignored him even though his brother sent him a birthday gift. It's sad they are not being brothers, but I trust him that he knows things I do not.

Oh Whiff, that's so lovely. It's so good you could speak to him. I suspect there's far more of us in this position than we realise. That brought a tear to my eye. In a good way!

AW.

Yay for Warrior Queens! No one's going to shut us up!

Thats lovely Whiff, im sure he felt better just by sharing with you.?

Here's a excellent example of how finding this thread has helped me talk about my son . My window cleaner came today. When I employed he asked me where I was from so we talked. He asked about family . So I told him . He told me his father brought 7 of them up by himself after his mom died at 52.

Today he asked me if I ever thought I would see my son again. I told him it was his choice . I didn't break the family up he did. But I was here to stay. Then he told me he said something to one of his siblings the others took their side and now none of his siblings want to talk to him.

I told him it was only because of all of you here that I found I wasn't alone and how common estrangement was. After we talked he said he felt better.

Because of your help,support and friendship I helped someone today. Warrior Queens spreading their wisdom. ?

Don't look back Yogin, it wouldn't have made any difference. He was jealous, he wanted you out and come hell or high water he was going to succeed, regardless of what you did or didn't do, just like our ES's wife.

It was 9 years ago last week that I discovered our ES had blocked our number; it was on his birthday. Today is Mr. S.'s birthday which he shares with our youngest GS. That must really annoy them.

You're a better person than me Allsorts I'd just send it back to the DVLA.

Yoginimeisje so sorry for your anniversary

Yes Whiff, we are becoming Warrior Queens. Together we are strong and our voice WILL be heard.

Derbyshirelass you are right. I had never considered this, having lost contact with toddler age GC... but yes I suppose the window is short. I am not yet sure if my son will allow his kids to go to school, at all. I don't know how my GC will have any friends or peers as my son hasn't these days and doesn't allow his wife to mix either. He is so paranoid and believes he knows best.

So sorry you're feeling like the dark cloud hanging over you. It's horrible isnt it. No one should have to feel like that and probably the only worse thing is the final discard. Like you, I'm sceptical about Christmas. This year has seen my son ignore my birthday, my husband's birthday and Father's Day- though I did get a gift on Mother's Day because everything seemed "normal" until Easter. My son did not acknowledge the gift we sent to GC for their birthdays but my DiL did. She messaged me every day for three days and then went radio silent. I am guessing he found out and shut her down.

Christmas. Hmmmmmmmmmmm I am not in the mood. We think we will just send gifts to our GC this year seeing as our son cannot bring himself to say thanks for his birthday gift, his wife's birthday gift or his kids birthday gift. He has tried to be in touch with his sibling- but my youngest is so unimpressed with his brother that he is ignoring him Families!!!

Smiles......enjoy your break. It sounds lovely.

Yogi.....you voiced what I have been thinking about. The window for GC wanting to spend lots of time with GPS is actually quite short isn't it. Once they reach their teens their friends and peers become increasingly important. Not a nice anniversary for you today, ?.

Onwards....I dont know quite what to make of what your son is playing at with DVLA.. It could of course be quite innocent but I too would be wary that he might be using your address to secure loans etc. Not a nice thought I know and no one wants to jump to the wrong conclusions but you are wise to be wary.

Not feeling full of the joys of spring this Morning. It's always there isn't it, estrangement and/or the fear if it is always the elephant in the room that never goes away. I just feel like the "will they or won't they estrange me" is like a dark cloud that hangs over me.

It's very disconcerting not knowing when the sword will fall. Christmas is looming and I'm just not that bothered at the moment. . Not like me at all, because normally I really look forward to the festive season but this year I'm lacking any enthusiasm. Oh well time yet I suppose.

Yogin my thoughts are with you. Not an anniversary to celebrate. But celebrate the fact you survived it and come out the other end stronger than you have ever been. If you wasn't stronger then you wouldn't have been able to be still here along with Smiles supporting the rest of us. Giving us your story and wisdom. But more importantly support and friendship. And knowing you can survive what ever horrible things our estranged children say or do.

Because of long timers on this thread we are all becoming Warrior Queens. And can look forward to a happy future . Ok wobbles along the way. But we will ultimately win the war. ?

9yrs today since I was told to "F* OFF" by my then DD H. It was a Friday, my normal day to visit. He was out of work, so at home and had been for more than 6 weeks. Looking back I should have changed our visiting routine and picked them up to come back to mine, to give him some space whilst he was out of work, but I didn't think of it then.

My darling GD will be in high school now and next year my GS too. Too much time has gone by now, the time when they love being with nannie is all but gone and the time for their friends the most important thing in their little lives has arrived.

PS the letter to my DiL that I sent to them last month was the same size and shape from DVLA too. I sent it on , unquestioningly (which I'm not kicking myself for) but when this came for my son I was so suspicious. I am hoping that my DiL has not got her licence through and that hers was also a refund because the form was "cooked".

What I'm worried about is in case they are thinking of using it as ID to get a loan out against our address. Not sure what to do. I will be more alert about post, in future and not just send it on.

Chewbacca, yes he is being an idiot. To my knowledge he doesn't even have a provisional licence and the cheque that was returned was for £35 (the cost of one)

(It must be hard to get a driving licence when you don't speak to anyone who knows you and can validate your photo etc . Knowing him, he has used some false details rather than actually ask someone who knows him to validate his form)

They don't speak to anyone at all. I am pretty sure my DiL would be in touch if he let her, but he is paranoid and controlling. All I can say is, he will find you need people, eventually.

OnwardandUpward your son is walking a very thin line by not informing the DVLA of his correct address. If he gets stopped for any traffic offence, the DVLA will write to him at the address they hold on file for him i.e. your address. If, for any reason, that letter wasn't forwarded onto him, he risks a fine of £600 plus 3 extra penalty points on his licence, plus whatever penalty for the traffic offence.

Crazy H , If you think one of your three children is almost perfect and tell him and others that , you are not treating or loving them all equally. Words hurt. I must say, one child was easier but I loved them as much as each other, however, you see all yours, whereas I’m estranged from one of mine.
Onward it would do your son good if you didn’t forward it as Whiff and Smileless said, but I would notify him there’s a letter waiting for him from DVLA and if he wants it he’d better collect it, if he doesn’t he will be in real trouble, you’ll give him a week then it’s being redirected to them. It is hard at first admitting estrangement, it took me years, I felt the failure, I now realise of course that it’s not me, I don’t want to discuss it with all and sundry now I say i have two children, but estranged from one but don’t want to talk about it.

Thanks Smileless I kick myself because even a month ago I paid to have post sent to them that came here. I did not recieve any acknowledgement or thanks and I've decided now that I'm not doing it anymore. I can't see why they might be using our address for the DVLA unless they are going to try using it as ID, taking a loan out or other type of dodgy thing. I have decided that I will keep an eye out and write "no longer at this address" in future, put their post back in the postbox.

No, the cheque is to him, but I'm not going to pass it on unless he gets in touch- No more making the effort for someone who can't even say thanks when I sent them the post last month- and is clearly up to no good.

He hasn't said he doesnt want to be in touch, but he's cruelly just doing nothing. Talking to my husband this evening and we're thinking of skipping him and his wife off the Christmas list and just sending our GC something.

I favouritise my children equally they are all literally my favourite human beings. Would not change anything about them.

Well he's more in the wrong than you are Onward for two reasons 1) because he refuses to have anything to do with you and 2) because he's given an address to the DVLA that isn't his place of residence.

Any way you can cash the cheque?