SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

You have not offended me DSL I do not harbour any resentment towards you, I was just trying to understand your posts.

I didn't say you attacked me DSL it was to another poster, as was Whiffs. I was pointing out that your posts to others were far worse than mine, as I have already said, many times, I was just trying to understand your situation where one post said your estranged and the next you're having Xmas day with your S&GC and Boxing day with the other, that was the only thing I puzzled over, so asked the question and got slaughtered for doing so!

Sorry Yogin but I fail to see that I have attacked you, in any way shape or form.

You said that you were puzzled by a couple of my posts that appeared to contradict each other so I explained my current situation, that I had been estranged but that I was trying to hang on to a somewhat limited reconciliation.

I answered you calmly and politely and at no point did I attack you.

You then apologised and I accepted your apology.

I thought the matter was concluded to our mutual satisfaction.

As far as I am aware I haven't actually addressed you since nor have I mentioned your name or referenced you in any way.

I am at a loss as to understand why you still appear to be harbouring some resentment towards me. If I have inadvertently offended you further then I can only apologise but as I am unaware that we have actually addressed each other since I accepted your apology I fail to see exactly how that could be so.

QuoteWhiff Tue 04-Jan-22 12:59:34
Yogin attack me if you want, quote me all you like. You are free to do that. But don't expect to get a rise from me.

I am not attacking you, I went on that thread this morning and saw your post and thought what a hypocrite, so I copied & pasted it.

I have been on this thread for 9yrs, so know fully that all are welcome, estranged, reunited then estranged again, even AC that have estranged their parents, so why is everyone telling me what I've known for the 9yrs of posting here
I've engaged with them all, in a pleasant manor. I was puzzled by DSL saying she was estranged in one post and in the next post saying she had Xmas day with her S&GC and Boxing day with her other Son, that was my only question, I asked nothing more.

Yet Whiff and DSL said much more than I in their posts and were attacking!, but this is ignored, that's why I copied and pasted their posts. I had no intentions of coming back on here till I saw Whiff post on another thread this morning.

3nanny6 I haven't said anything about your relationship with your daughter. ?

Good Afternoon and I find myself back again.

Whiff just letting you know that I did not go many years without having the relationship with my daughter. I was in the lives of my two grand-children for several years it was good but my daughter had struggled with bi-polar for a few years so in fact I had to do a lot for them Daughter then had a third child and was still not coping well and it was at this point so much went down hill. I was being called on to take on so much responsibility by my daughter up to the point where I was almost run into the ground. Once daughter started turning on me I still tried to offer some help and that was when things changed and often I was taking items to her doorstep and not invited/allowed in the house. That was not something that had gone on for years as I would never have
been able to deal with that. I did buy presents for her children this year they had been a big part of my life since they had been born and even when they had started school I was around so this year not knowing how she would react I could not face taking presents to her home and not being invited in, hence the reason to send them by the taxi.

Madgran : I notice how you used Derbyshirelass in your post to point out how she has had a time of full estrangement but then some reconciliation as she did spend Christmas Day with her son and DIL also grand-child and like you say then she still has reason to be able to post.
For some of us the estrangement does not happen overnight we all have different circumstances and depending on our sons/daughters the estrangement can happen over a period of time and in that time we can ride a merry go round of emotions all of which can be difficult to understand.

DerbyshireLass I do not mind if you want to use the term "Warrior Queen" and if that makes you feel better about yourself then use it. I do not want to offend you but that term I would not use for myself. I can see where you are coming from as you have now explained about your birthmark on your face and it seems that you summoned up this Warrior Queen to give you coping strategies so if it works for you then go ahead and keep her.
I often do not see the bumps lumps scars or otherwise on people yes when you meet someone for just a moment you take in a small amount and may notice something but then it disappears and you get to know the person.
I have watched Katie Piper (the beautiful young woman on T.V.) we know how she had acid thrown in her face and had many operations because of that, all I see when I look at her is a beautiful woman with a beautiful face and beautiful smile
and she is beautiful inside and out the awful person that done that to her has not destroyed her in fact her beauty is more radiant. I think she still suffers with tightness of skin but she does not look for pity or feel sorry for herself she lives the best life she can. I call her a true life survivor.
It seems to me we all have that certain coping strategy that works for us so use whatever it is that gets you through.
Too long a post as usual I am off to do some house chores.

Ah Whiff - you poor husband. At least mine wasnt a malignant melanoma. I was very fortunate. I had to smile though at him saying he'd been glassed rather than admitting to cancer. But I get it. Sometimes I found the pity in peoples eyes harder to bear than the bullying. The ones who pitied me, never said anything....they usually looked away and avoided my eyes.

Oddley enough It wasnt my classmates or peers who bullied me, it was adults. Teachers, some neighbours and of course my dad, he couldn't bear to look at me half the time. He was a narcissist and of course his disfigured daughter reflected badly on him. I was also too tall, too thin and far too clever for my good. I saw straight through his narcissism and why I was such a disappointment to him.

Because of all the stress I developed stomach problems which have been the bane of my life. And at one point, I developed a stutter. My kind English teacher took me under her wing and gave me elocution lessons. It stopped my stutter and also ironed out my regional accent.

I learned to "talk proper". ?

Then something weird happened. It was 1963, I hit puberty and the "equipment" arrived. It was swinging London and all that. All of a sudden I had the right look - tall, slender, endless legs, and joy of joy the birthmark began to fade. All topped off with my cut glass accent. Almost overnight I became the popular girl, the perfect 60s Dolly Bird. I stopped fretting about the birthmark.

But I digress........

You are right Smiles.....I really don't want to offend anyone by seeming to be rubbing salt into their wounds. Yes I am enjoying a period of respite, but it's a very fragile and delicate situation.

Yes I am managing to see my son and grandchildren, albeit only sporadically. But, I'll take that, seeing them occasionally is better than not seeing them at all, no matter how difficult and stressful it is.

And now I have to get cracking, I need to brave the supermarket. Don't fancy it at all.

So toodle pip everyone.

I don't think anyone could accuse you of not expressing yourself clearly DSL. I've seen elsewhere today someone believing that estrangement would indeed be preferable to the game playing and emotional abuse they're being subjected too.

I do believe that what doesn't break you makes you stronger. Your resilience during your childhood and young adulthood has served you well in giving you the self confidence and self worth to get on with your life, regardless of what comes your way.

Yogin attack me if you want, quote me all you like. You are free to do that. But don't expect to get a rise from me.

I like being a Warrior Queen. Think I earned my crown dealing with my in laws from 1975 until my mother in law's death 2015.

Even though they put us through hell my darling husband would never give up on them. And they always saw the children every week. Even after they had left home still kept in touch with their grandmother and made sure she had a mother's Day card for grandmother. As she out lived my husband by 11 years. Even as badly as she treated me I looked after her until she died. What mother denies she ever had a son or has 2 grandchildren. Because she did.

DerbyshireLass you have should how strong you can be dealing with a birthmark on your face. I know how cruel some people can be. My brother had a large mole on his face. Once at school some boys held him down and went to cut it off. He fought and his friends arrived and they beat the shit out of the bullies.
He had to have it removed as it became pre cancerous in his 20's.

My husband had a grade 4 malignant
melanoma on his face. Had to have a large skin graft. He had a scar on left side of his neck and a large oval graft on his right side of his face . The idiot when people ask he said he was in a bottle fight. He didn't want pity for his cancer.

People can be very cruel with actions and words. Some do it deliberately some don't realise what they say or do is hurtful.

We had enough the other day with those 2 imposter posters as I call them.

Smiles made this a safe place for all. Estranged ,partly estranged and those that have been reunited with their children. Life is not black and white it's all shades of grey.

Madgran. I am not at all offended that you have used my sorry situation as a case history to demonstrate, that hopefully, all are welcome on this thread, irrespective of their current estrangement status.

All I know is that my situation is extremely precarious. And that causes me a great deal of stress and anxiety, so much so that I sometimes wonder if it would be better for me to be fully estranged so I no longer have to ride the roller coaster.

However, I will hang on and ride it out. where's there life, there's hope. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. It's the best I can do. And if I need to metaphorically don my armour And assuming a Warrior Queen persona to help me then that's what I will do.

I am not asking others to do the same if it is something they feel is of no help or relevance to them. We are all individuals and we all have our own unique way of overcoming life's obstacles.

I was born with a birthmark on my face. I learned from a very early age that I had to toughen up and stand up to the bullies who teased me about my face and to ignore the well meant but infuriating pity I saw in other peoples eyes. Then my "armour" was glamour..... make up, beautiful clothes, humour and wit.. I guess I adopted a Warrior Queen persona at an early age. She is always there fore me, when I need her I summon her up. It works for me, I appreciate it might not work for everyone.

We are individuals and we must all find our own way. We don't have to behave like sheep and follow the herd. If you like my Warrior Queen idea then great, use it, run with it and let it work for you. If it's not for you then that's ok too. Develop your own strategies.

My birthmark taught me one very important lesson......there was no point in sitting around feeling sorry for myself, or blaming others. It was the hand I had been dealt and I had to play it, it could not be surgically removed without the risk of it spreading so I was stuck with it.

Some of you clearly love my idea of Warrior Queens, some of you find it offensive and to those who are offended I have already made my apologies.

My ideas are just that ideas. They are not rules written in stone. Take them or leave them, I don't mind in the slightest.

I have received quite a bit of flak for having the temerity to add a little levity to this thread but I'm not offended. . Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I really don't mind constructive criticism, I am by no means perfect and I am always willing to try and improve myself.

I do however mind being continually hauled over the coals and having my words twisted and misinterpreted, especially the monstrous allegation that I would exult in my sons downfall and unhappiness, that I want to see his marriage disintegrate.

Perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself clearly enough.

All I know is this.......my son is married to a malignant narcissist. If you know anything about narcissism you will understand.

BTW. If anyone is interested. Over time the birthmark did fade a little and I learned the magic of camouflage make up. So I got by, and by the time I was in my 30s most people didnt notice it anymore, unless for some reason it got angry.

Then in 2006 it became cancerous and had to be surgically removed. The surgeon did a superb job and all I was left with was a fine white scar. Unfortunately he did have to remove quite a bit of surrounding skin tissue leaving my face a bit lopsided, but a non invasive cosmetic procedure called PDO threads sorted that out.

Alls well that ends well. ?

I don't understand your post Yogin or why you feel there was a backlash and that your words were twisted. I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't agree that was the case.

Unintentionally, your post from the 1st of January made DSL feel uncomfortable about continuing to post here. She'd previously pm'd me with her intention to leave because she was worried that having managed, for the time being at least, to avoid further estrangement, she'd be seen as 'rubbing salt' into the wounds of others. I persuaded her to stay as I never expected that to be the case.

You apologised and your apology was accepted so I, wrongly it appears, thought the matter to had been dealt with and laid to rest.

I disagree that there's any "warrior queen nonsense" and that it has "taken this thread down a different pathway". You are of course entitled to your opinion, and that is mine.

This was first introduced as a joke by DSL and taken up by some to lighten the mood and others have found it empowering. As I posted a couple of days ago, for me it does both.

A support thread for those living with estrangement has been running for years, and I have ensured in recent years that it remains available by starting a 'new' one each time the previous one reaches the maximum 1000 posts.

IMO it hasn't "gone down a different pathway". This thread continues to do what it was set out to do, provide a place for those living with estrangement, to realise that they are not alone, that they should not feel guilty or ashamed and most importantly, to feel 'safe' and find the care and support that we all need.

Sorry, but I have no idea why you've quoted a post from Whiff from another thread. We are all in agreement aren't we, that unless you've experienced what it is like to be estranged, you cannot possibly know what it's like.

Yogin The Christmas period is such an emotional and hurting time for many people, whatever stage of the estrangement journey they might be at and even after an estrangement appears to have ended.

As you said in your original post "nearly estranged" is not "estrangement". However it carries its own pains and worries as does any stage of estrangement/potential estrangement and I think maybe your comment was read specifically as suggesting only fully estranged people should post, even though you said that was not what you meant. Emotions can take over when reading and comments can be missed, sadly.

I agree that posters appear to contradict themselves sometimes but perhaps it depends on whether they view "Experiencing Estrangement" as only being when there is no contact whatsoever as opposed to "Experiencing Estrangement" as a process with stages that many go through.

I hope Derbyshire Lass will not mind me using her painful situation as an example, where she has gone through years of trying to avoid estrangement, has experienced a period of full estrangement not knowing if it was permanent, has drawn clear red lines to protect herself from future pain as far as she can, is not technically estranged now but is never really sure what will happen next, knows that it might all go pear shaped again but is determined to live her life as she sees fit despite that....she may not be "fully estranged" at the moment but she is certainly suffering aspects of the estrangement journey.

Everyone who is at any stage of the estrangement journey will I think suffer aspects of it for the rest of their lives. On that basis this thread can offer support, learning from each other and critical friendship to everyone who feels it is helpful and where people are on their journey seems a bit irrelevant to me. I don't know if others will agree with me on that, but I know that I find it helpful to learn from posters who are at different stages including those who fear estrangement.

I hope that despite your concerns about the "backlash" you felt here, despite your long estrangement, that you were able to enjoy Christmas and New Year with others.

I couldn't believe the backlash I got from my earlier post, reading it back I am assuming that you have read DSL post that I quoted but failed to put in italics was from me, so please read again. Otherwise my words have been twisted out of contexts and the meaning altered. My estD's husband did this all the time, never expected the same on here. Please show me where I was 'attacking'

QuoteYoginimeisje Sat 01-Jan-22 09:07:35
Is anyone else thinking the same puzzlement as me?
Derbyshirelass saw her son, d.i.l & GC on Xmas day and her other son & girlfriend on Boxing day, that's not estrangement. I fully understand why she is posting here and certainly don't think for one moment she shouldn't, but nearly estranged is not estranged. I am not 'having a go' at you DSL flowers I'm really not, but facts are facts. And all this 'warrior queen' nonsense has taken this thread down a different pathway in my opinion.

QuoteDerbyshireLass Fri 31-Dec-21 14:15:56
I do however think it somewhat disingenuous for people who have not suffered estrangement to feel they are in a position to criticise or offer unsolicited advice to those who are struggling with broken hearts and smashed lives.

It is like anything else in this life, if you have not personally experienced something you cannot really understand how it feels. Sounds trite but you really do have to "walk a mile in someone else shoes" to know what they are going through.

One of the difficult parts of estrangement is the tiny glimmer of hope that one day there might be a reconciliation

QuoteYoginimeisje Sat 01-Jan-22 12:08:35
The puzzlement wasn't about DSL posting on here, she has every right, as I already said, it was about saying 'walk in my shoes' & 'unless you've been estranged you can't understand' and then saying she saw her S&GC on Xmas day and the other son on Boxing day, so not estranged. I was estranged just before Xmas, I still have their Xmas gifts.

QuoteYoginimeisje Sat 01-Jan-22 11:39:47
QuoteDerbyshireLass Well that was a nice reply, I apologise for hurting you, never meant to and certainly don't want you to leave the page, I didn't know you'd had a 10 week gap not seeing your son, I had the same, a year before the estrangement. It was just that seeing you say you spent Xmas day with your son & GC and Boxing with your other son, I haven't seen mine since 2012. As for warrior queen, that is just my opinion, as I said, and as I have already said back post, a warrior queen I am not.

I've read your posts with interest and I have read PF with much interest too and replied with much sympathy and support as I have with similar posters who have been estranged and then reunited only to be estranged again. The poster I remember the most, I think she may have started the original thread 10yrs ago, she put the most heart breaking poem on about her lost GC. Her AS made it so difficult to see them, she even travelled to France to have one hour with her GC. I remember her saying she was walking up the beach and her little GD ran up and slipped her little hand in hers, and how her heart melted.

You mustn't leave the page because of what I said, after all it was a fact and I tried to put it in the nicest possible way, but clearly failed. So I'm sorry for that flowers. Stay, I know everyone would want you to.


This is from Whiff from another thread!
QuoteWhiff Thu 29-Jul-21 07:18:33
CafeAuLait as you say you are not an estrangement parent so you have no idea what it feels like. You seem to assume we have done something to make our children turn their backs I us. I can assure I did nothing wrong and never saw what happened with my son coming .

You can read all research you like but it doesn't matter. Until it happens to you ,you shouldn't comment as you haven't experienced it.

It makes me mad when people talk about something they haven't experienced and voice an opinion. I only talk about things I have experienced.

Add comment | Report | Private message | QuoteWhiff Thu 29-Jul-21 07:23:08
Sorry CafeAuLait just released it wasn't you writing you must have been replying to someone else who had message deleted .

Hope you're feeling a little better today DSL you've no doubt been affected by the stress of worrying about Christmas day being OK and spending your entire time with them,and hoping that there wouldn't be any thing said or done, to create problems.

Just imagining how stressful this will have been for you, stresses me out, just thinking about it.

I always feel like that Spring, once the decorations have been put away and the house looks 'normal' again. I still love Christmas but it is without a doubt the most difficult time of the year when you've been estranged do there's always that sense of relief when it's over, and you've managed to get through it all again.

"You always find time for those that matter" is so true Allsorts.

Another example of being damned if you do and damned if you don't Whiff. You're given a mobile so your AC know that you're OK, you do as requested and message every day and you're in the wrong.

Impossible to play a game when the rules keep changing and impossible to avoid scoring an own goal when the goal posts are never in the same place, from one day to the next.

Well I got the first of my rather large admin. jobs done yesterday. As I thought, once I'd got going it was a breeze so I feel ready for today's task, which shouldn't take me more than 2 or 3 hours; hopefully.

It's a beautiful day here so I plan to be finished in time to go for a walk with the dogs and Mr. S. when I've finished.

After my husband died my children took me to get a mobile phone. So they could always get in touch with me . Once they left home for good. Both told me to text everyday to let them know I was ok . And made me promise if I was unwell I had to tell them. I kept my word. I didn't expect a reply from them but they did.

Fast forward to my son's email . One of his things he has thrown back in my face is my texting everyday to let him know how I am. His words your texting is and has been ridiculous why you feel the need to text every single day I just can't comprehend.

So know matter what you do you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

I only did what I promised.

DerbyshireLass you don't have to explain or feel you have to defend yourself . Write what you like. If like me this is the only place you can be honest about how you feel. I can't talk to anyone else they don't understand . But here I can . People will disagree with me and may even attack me. But I am not going anywhere.

Smiles made this a place for us to get help and be ourselves. A safe place. But like all threads we have people who want to stir up trouble like those 2 the other day.

But the thread is still going and new people joining all the time. Estrangement seems to be on the increase . Which is sad.

Dl Perhaps your son is busy, it’s really up to him the contact he has with his aunt. If they are on a social media site as your dil implies they know anyway and if they want to contact her they will. You always find time for those that matter.
When you haven’t heard a peep for years you don’t matter for sure.
I think a lot of estrangements are from younger adults, who with time and experience hopefully come back into the fold. Not the case for me.

A Tale of Two Brothers.

My BIL currently has Covid. Touch wood he's ok so far. Yesterday my sister and he had to have their beloved young dog put down. They are heartbroken.

This morning I have spent a couple of hours talking to my sister, trying to comfort her. Knowing how much she loves my sons, her nephews, I sent both my sons an identically worded text, telling them the sad news and asking them to send a text with a few kind words to their aunt.

My Youngest son asked for her number and sent a her a lovely kind thoughtful text.

My semi estranged son has so far ignored my text but my DIL sent a snotty replying "yes we know, we have seen her post".

So there you go. The difference between a normal son and his kind thoughtful partner and a son who is controlled and manipulative by a malignant narcissist.

That is what the families of malignant narcissists have to contend with.

I wont be tackling the decorations today, just can't face doing anything now. Going to drag myself out for a breath of fresh air.

Spring you are right, it's a roller coaster ride and frankly I'm ready to get off the roller coaster.

Christmas decorations back in the loft!
Tired now, but it feels like order and calm restored not just in the house, but internally too. What a roller coaster many estranged folk - children, parents, grandparents - ride this time of year. Thanks for the viewing tips DSL. Sounds a good plan for this afternoon.

Threat not thread. Lol

Gosh whiff. I can see why you were unnerved. I'd be left ruminating too.

Not feeling 100% if I'm honest. IBS and fibro flare up yesterday. Stress related. Thankfully feel a bit better today, just drained and exhausted. Still haven't tackled the Christmas decorations yet, doesn't matter still got a coup,e of days yet till 12th Night so it's not critical. Might try later ...or maybe not.

Mañana maybe?. Blue skies here but a tad chilly. Going to wrap up and take a stroll, blow the cobwebs away.

If anyone needs a laugh.....and let's face it most of us do I can recommend the following......

Dont Look Up....a political satire which is about a meteor about to hit the Earth in an extinction level event and the way the US government responds to the thread. Darkly comic with a cast of heavyweight mega Hollywood talent. The cast list is astonishing and they all give stellar performances.

The other is Around the World in 80 Days. Nothing like the book or the previous film with David Niven but it is a fun romp. David Tennant is brilliant as a buttoned up as Fogg, the story has been updated for a 21st century audience which some might not like but I found it endearing and charming, I binged watched it yesterday whilst resting and it cheered me up no end,

Oops about to run out of battery.....time for my walk,

I'd have had the same reaction whiff then spent the next few days convincing myself that it was who I hoped it was..
Blue skys ahead for all us us this year..

I can understand why you found that unsettling Whiffand the thoughts you're having aren't stupid at all.

I'd have had the same thoughts too.

3nanny glad you are well on the mend and had a lovely time with your son and his partner. I don't know how you had the courage to deliver the Christmas gifts to your grandchildren all those years and not see them. I know I couldn't have done it. I have my limits. At least sending them via taxi was a better idea for you.

snowberry this thread saved me. The help, support, advice, understanding and friendship I have here means I can cope without my son and grandson's in my life. I have wobbles but know here is safe.

I can't talk to any of my family about how I really feel. My son hasn't just cut me out of his life but all over side of the family. So here I can voice my feelings.

Had a very unsettling moment yesterday afternoon. I was sorting out some washing in my spare bedroom. When a car exactly the same as my son's pull up 2 doors up on the opposite side of the road. I couldn't see in . It stayed there for 10 mins and drove away.

Part of me hoped it was my son and he was coming to see me and part of me said of course it's not him.

I am just so muggled . I have tried to put it out of my mind and know it wasn't him but it was so strange. Hadn't seen that car before in the road.

Now I have these stupid thoughts in my head has that car been there before and I never noticed or was it the first time.

Really need to pull myself together and stop these stupid thoughts. ?

Hi 3nanny you did the right thing getting a taxi to drop off the presents for you. You were still feeling unwell and even without that I can't imagine how painful it's been for you, to be stood on the door step with the children in side, and be able to give them a hug.

It's amazing how strong you have been through out this and it's really lovely to know that you have such a good relationship with your son and his partner, and are being included in your little GS's life.

The gifts you bought for him sound really lovely and I hope you have some photographs of the lovely time you spent with them all.

This support thread is as the title says, for all living with estrangement snowberry and if you read Madgran's post yesterday you'll see that some need support despite having been estranged for years, some recently, some are dealing with the problems they find when reconciling and some are living with the fear and very real prospect that estrangement may happen to them.

Is this board mainly for people whose children have cut them off or is it mainly for people who have cut off their parents?
It's difficult to tell.
Thanks