Letter to my Estranged Child

Maybe getting some freedom an autonomy is enough fir your grandson, I think boundaries are a good idea.

I don't know what to say about his mum except that it's a shame she isn't listening to his needs.

I must admit I'm quite overprotective as a mother but I do know that's not right and I do listen when my children tell me off for worrying too much...

VioletSky

theworriedwell would they both agree to some sort of counselling? I worry about you being in the middle here, even though you are handling it with so much strength

He won't, all he wants is to stay with us and he sees any intervention eg. the school, as undermining that. She won't as she can't see she has been anything short of perfect.

Thanks for your support, I just want to get through the next 20 or 21 months till he is off to uni and hope to undo some of the problems he has.

He is currently out shopping with a new girlfriend and is enjoying life. Interestingly he sat and talked to her about it last night, I was also in the conversation. She was moaning about her parents being strict and as he explained his life her jaw just dropped further and further. Him being able to talk about his experience is a big step forward, he has talked to me before but not to anyone else and he's never said as much even to me. I think the signs are good. Initially our strategy was to totally love bomb him but we are gradually setting some boundaries, he isn't difficult so this part is easy.

I hope you got it Smileless

I wouldn't do it on purpose

That's fascinating Peasblossom, I suppose in its most basic form it's the flight or fight response and to what extent is that primeval.

When a situation has arisen and the 'chosen' reaction gave the best outcome, to what extent in a similar situation is making the same decision instinctive or learned behaviour due to previous experience and the desired outcome.

IMO your sentence that I quoted in my last post VS is making a link that is based on conjuncture and therefore needed clarification.

theworriedwell would they both agree to some sort of counselling? I worry about you being in the middle here, even though you are handling it with so much strength

That's a shame Peasblossom

I have to look at this from a non personal perspective because there is also research into ACEs and the impact on the subjects own children.

Parents having ACEs and the resulting mental and physical health issues (still being researched) may impact their children, especially, research suggests so far, mothers, which I am.

So healing matters, talking about it matters, which is why I asked for help from "disinterested sources" so that I can be the best mother possible for my own children.

My childhood and being a victim of all 3 types of abuse may not be my responsibility but healing from it is.

Please dont send the letter, I was the ES child once and I would not ever have wanted anything to do with anyone if this letter had arrived. I hope you can reconcile with your son at some point. x

I have spent a large part of my working life with cases of childhood abuse. Of course it needs to be brought into the open and prevention is vital.

I’m sorry for your experiences and that nobody recognised what was happening or took action to prevent it.

I don’t think it would be right for me to post any further. Please believe this is not shutting down the discussion, but withdrawing from it. I can see that my academic viewpoint and your personal one are not helpful to either of us at this time.

I think one of the problems is defining abuse. Sometimes it is easy, no one would argue that little Arthur was abused but I don't think it is always that clear cut. One persons idea of strictness can be abuse to another.

I remember reading about James Garner and his childhood. From what I remember he was fed, he wasn't beaten black and blue but his step mother would make him go to school in a dress. Compared to Arthur not a big deal but very disturbing for the boy concerned.

My GS felt his treatment was unfair, not sure if he'd right out say it was abusive. His mother feels she was an exemplary mother. He was well dressed well fed. As a teenager he had never been allowed to have friends round to play, he'd never been allowed to visit friends homes, he'd never been able to go to the park, just down the road, no need to cross a road. He wasn't allowed to pick his own clothes or say how he wanted his hair cut. When he rebelled his step father got physical about it. My amazement was that they had controlled him so much that he had towed the line till 16.

Was it abuse? Well it means he's left home, initially wanted no contact with his mother but has a little now.

His mother maintains everything she did was for his own good and she was an excellent mother.

Was she abusive? If she was will she ever see it?

Peasblossom I do understand that and I also understand, for instance, that ACEs scores do not give the full picture because it also matters what stage of brain development is impacted and they don't actually show that at all.

There is no doubt that I and others are estranged due to abuse by a parent... I cannot prove that either really as physical scars my mother would tell a different story about and emotional scars are invisible unless you know where to look.

There is no doubt that others are estranged due to their child's addiction, behaviour or having an abusive controlling partner.

Why that is happening is important and if we don't talk about it, how will anyone ever be protected from it?

Yes but before you can prove a correlation you have to take all the variables into account.

So, for instance, with estrangement you would need data on those who were estranged and had an abusive childhood,
those who were estranged and had a non-abusive childhood, those who were not estranged and had an abusive childhood, those who were not estranged and did not have an abusive childhood

before you could say with any certainty that an abusive childhood was causal in estrangement.

And because the data would rely on emotive perception (and the neural pathways that make the narrative real to the subject) it would lack validity unless verified by a disinterested source,

I don’t seem to be able to explain what makes research and it’s analysis valid as opposed to anecdotal evidence from a restricted field so I think I’d better leave it for now.

Smileless I actually said that, that's what I mean when I said that I didn't think people were listening to what I was actually saying. I said that ACEs can come from family members that are not the parents and can come from sources that are not in the family at all. I also said that adults can have traumatic experiences that cause mental health issues etc... Its all there

I'm sorry Peasblossom I think there is a lot of research already on ACEs and a lot of literature on the subject, I'm happy to take statistics out of the discussion but it's hard, I can't remember his name (my memory is not the best) but someone did research into drug addiction and ACEs and out of 1200 subjects 1100 had an ACEs score of 3 or more.

I don't know if anyone has ever put the two together in an official capacity

However much as a figure for (possibly cos statistics) 1 in 5 people being estranged from a family member is scary..

(possibly cos statistics) 1 in 5 people having ACEs is just awful to me.

Well, the research I’m interested in at the moment is a cooperation between neurology and psychology that looks at patterns of learned responses and the formation of neural pathways.

It looks at how a neural pathway is formed and reinforced so that, given a trigger, the thought will always take the easiest pathway in the brain, in terms of reaction to the trigger and subsequent behaviour. And whether it is possible to erase a pathway, divert it or extend it beyond the original so that behaviour can be changed.

The means we have now to actually watch the brain at work has given me a whole new interest in my declining years.

But the correlation you see violetsky really is a mirage. It happens all the time and is so recognised that it has a name - Prophenia. Honestly, any statistician will tell you the same as I have said.

Frustratingly, just sometimes, someone will make a random connection and be proved right at a later date. Like the connection with antiviral drugs and the treatment of MS. But only after the research has been done?

"I find it interesting that the number of people reporting some kind of family estrangement is the same number of people reporting ACE's".

But that is anecdotal at best as some of those people reporting some kind of family estrangement will be those who have been estranged, and their estrangement will have nothing to do with abuse within the family.

Some EAC become involved with a coercive, controlling and manipulative partner and as a result estrange their parents and often their wider family too.

I am not saying that you have done this in your last post VS but I have seen in the past, posts on GN making a correlation between AC who do become involved with an abusive partner and having been abused in childhood.

I do not dispute that this can and does happen but it is most definitely not always the case.

No that wasn't fair Peasblossom. Your posts are informative and balanced and a welcome contribution to this subject.

That's not what I mean Peasblossom

I know numbers don't always mean what you think, like 50% more likely can sound more scary than it is but if the original number is 1 in 1000 then 50% more is 2 in 1000.

I am more interested in the patterns and that's what I see, I do see a correlation between the two. I find it interesting that the number of people reporting some kind of family estrangement is the same as the number of people reporting ACEs.

I'm not blaming anyone, just saying that from what I have read about trauma and how it leads to things like addition or abusive adult relationships, and the reasons that both parents and estranged children have given for estrangement... I see a pattern.

I do not mean any harm by saying this, I'm looking for answers that could help us avoid these painful situations.

VioletSky

I haven't been given any reasons why there would be no correlation between the two.

Just a no, no discussion.

This is why I like the organisation that Onward posted as they do tend to have an unbiased approach.

Although personally I do believe that not supporting your own child in their sexuality or religion etc is in itself, abusive and at very least neglectful of their needs and rights

Now that really isn’t fair.

All my posts have been about how the Science of statistics work. And trying to explain several reasons why we can’t use anecdotal evidence from a limited number of sources as a basis for a statistical analysis and base any conclusions upon it.
At no point have I tried to make it personal or to shut down a discussion about estrangement.

I don’t have any interest in estrangement other than observing it as a bystander. I do have an academic interest in human behaviour and lately particularly it’s role in estrangement, which incidentally is not a new pattern of human behaviour.
Patterns do emerge, but there is no way to analyse them statistically in any reliable form.

I would hope that not being personally emotionally involved in these studies has given me a disinterested view. We are all susceptible to bias, the estranged and those who estrange.

Yes Smileless, I saw that and burst out laughing!

Oh dear there’s lots of sadness and hurt in this letter I would just put a light to the letter you’ve said your peace. try to love more it’s not good for you to be carrying so much hurt around it’ll just eat away at you.try and have a gentle reconciliation.

It's good to write down our feelings then destroy them afterwards. It's therapeutic. I too will not be contacting my EAS nor my grandkids. Old enough to make choices which they made. They took their action in spring and all the normal birthdays etc have come and gone. I sent card and gift but no word ftom them so that's it. It doesn't stop us thinking though does it. Like all of us I have good days and bad days. I've removed all photos It's better than torturing myself. Hope you all feel peace as we head closer to the Christmas period.

"The one good thing, IMO, that has come of estrangement being talked about more than it has in the past is the resources available for both estrangers and estranged".

Exactly. In the 9 years since being estranged I have seen a huge increase in the availability of resources in books, on line and with on line discussion groups.

I have no idea why my last post was immediately followed by a comment about people not listening and making it all about themselves.

You talk a lot of sense freedomfromthepast, I agree with your perspectives.

I haven't been given any reasons why there would be no correlation between the two.
Just a no, no discussion.

How can you possibly say that! Peasblossom explained extensively as to why, just because 2 sets of data, having the same end figure, does not provide empirical statistical evidence that there is a causal link; that's not how mathematical statistics work! As has been explained to you, full research would need to be undertaken (which, on this subject, has never been done by the way) by a qualified and accredited statistician, who would need to use a sufficiently large sample size in order to determine patterns and trends. You can't pull together two random bits of research, which only support confirmation bias, and then claim that this is statistically proves your point. It just doesn't!

It's a shame when people don't listen to what is actually being said and make it about themselves

freedom this is true

The abuse in my family was a cycle, passed down.

How I wish there had been more focus on mental health, more help, more resources when my mum was young.. How different things could have been for both of us

I should have said report different reasons instead of see things differently.

Unfortunately, I do not think we will ever have a clear picture of statistics. As we all know, many people do not talk about estrangement. How many of us have said that, until it happened to them, they did not realize it was a thing.

It is also muddled by the fact that, based on informal surveys that have been done, the people estranged and the people estranging report very different reasons. So two people affected by one estrangement may see things differently, skewing statistics.

The one good thing, IMO, that has come of estrangement being talked about more then it has in the past is the resources available for both estrangers and estranged.

The more we talk about it and come together, the better support will be available to everyone.