Child estranges one gradparent

I just meant that if they all wanted the same thing, grandad to see the GC, there wouldn’t be any “sides”.

Not that it wouldn’t be difficult. Life often requires us to smile and say yes when inside our hearts are breaking.

Agree Peasblossom

Yes that would be "a gracious and loving gesture" Peasblossom which she may have already made, but despite that continues to find the situation "extremely difficult" as Essendon continues to struggle too.

Peasblossom

Actually there doesn’t have to be “sides”.

If the wife could bring herself to say ‘Go with my blessing. Give them my love.”

It would be a gracious and loving gesture that could be the first step in reconciliation.

Beautifully put

My son has nothing to do with this Allsorts, this isn't about my son, it's about the OP, his son and his wife. I do think it muddies the waters when detailed personal experiences are brought into the discussion that are not really relevant.

I mentioned our estrangement in my first post on this thread with virtually no detail so Essendon would know I have personal experience of being estranged from an AC and GC.

The details of my estrangement, and what happened between me and my m.i.l., raised by another poster on this thread are irrelevant.

Exactly Madgran. The OP "just wants advice on what he might consider doing, not conjecture about his family members motivation etc." especially when it's not based on anything the OP has said.

Agree Peasblossom.

Peasblossom Actually there doesn’t have to be “sides”.

No there doesn't and it is a pity that it so often seems to be turned into that in discussions on this forum! Every situation is different

Actually there doesn’t have to be “sides”.

If the wife could bring herself to say ‘Go with my blessing. Give them my love.”

It would be a gracious and loving gesture that could be the first step in reconciliation.

Freedom| I think the problem here is that people are looking for justification for the estrangement in order to form an opinion to advise the OP

I would tend to agree. The issue on this thread is the concerns that Essenden has in the sad situation he finds himself. Justification or otherwise for the estrangement is not actually relevant! Advising Essenden on what he might find helpful to consider is!

Bibbity The son may never wish to be in contact with his mother. Sometimes estrangement is the answer and is the end solution

Well yes, and that is for the son to decide. And it is for Essenden to decide the way forward for himself and his responsibilities within his family. It is not for others to speculate on what may or may not be best for his son! Who knows!

Violet* It's so important to realise that our children are separate, individual people.

I cant really see anywhere that suggests anyone is not seeing their children as separate individual people?

Smileless The point of this thread isn't whether the son is or is not justified in estranging his mother, whether he is right or wrong to have done so, but the difficulties only the OP being able to visit, is causing for him and his wife

I agree, as per what I said above

Smileless There is no suggestion that the OP's wife will or even wants to stop the OP from seeing their son and GC, and I fail to see how embellishing what little we do know, is helpful to the OP

I also agree on this

The point is that conjecture about the motivations or otherwise of Essenden's wife really aren't going to help Essenden in deciding a way forward when he is clearly uncomfortable with the situation. He wants to do right for his son but he also wants to do right for his wife. He may in his heart want his son to reconcile with his mother but he doesn't say that he is pushing for that nor does he say that he wants to walk away. He just wants advice on what he might consider doing, not conjecture about his family members motivation etc. He has come back andf given the extra information that he feels able to give

Essenden I hope that you have found all the suggestions etc helpful and I hope hope that you can work out a way forward that works for you and is right for you and for your family

The wife is an adult.

The grandchild isn't. The child is being deprived of a relationship with their grandparent when the door is open. Depending the age wondering where Grandad has gone.

We can only say what we do and put our opinion across.

In the main I agree with you Smileless but your son didn’t have a traumatic childhood or was surrounded by extreme anxiety.
I wish this family the best of luck. It sounds like Essenden and his wife need to get themselves strong again, perhaps working on their relationship to get to a better place might be a start. It’s so hard in these times to get counselling but they all need it.

The dilemma for the OP may be that if he sees his son and GC when his wife can't, he feels he's taking his 'side' and if he stops, because both he and his wife are struggling with this very difficult situation, he will be taking his wife's.

What a sad update

You all sound like you've been through hell.
Maybe your son having his own child has triggered something for him. Unfortunately Anxiety isn't something that goes away, he can manage it but it never leaves and maybe it's too late for a relationship between your son and his mum.

I would still continue to see my son and GC, it's not the child's fault and hopefully your wife is understanding of her past and why things are the way they are.

The child comes first, always.

Allsorts I don't think parents facing trauma is exceptional and I don't think it's right for family members to take sides when doing so creates a much bigger divide that would very likely prevent reconsiliation but apart from that, wise words.

I disagree Casdon. In this particular case I am looking at the relationship between a husband and wife, both who have suffered the tragic death of a child, both who found it difficult to come to terms with their loss and parent their remaining children as well as they'd done previously and one, the mother who was eventually diagnosed with complex ptsd.

The mother has been estranged by their son so is unable to see him or their GC while the father is able to do so. The point of this thread isn't whether the son is or is not justified in estranging his mother, whether he is right or wrong to have done so, but the difficulties only the OP being able to visit, is causing for him and his wife.

I don't "accuse a lot of DIL from stopping their husbands from having a relationship with their family" Bibbity. What a ridiculous thing to say.

I respond in accordance with what is said on a particular situation. I have not said "it's the selfish DIL putting her feelings first". I haven't even mentioned the DIL on this thread. I suggest you stick to what's actually being said here if you want to comment, rather than what you think was said.

There is no suggestion that the OP's wife will or even wants to stop the OP from seeing their son and GC, and I fail to see how embellishing what little we do know, is helpful to the OP.

I hope that you will be able to encourage your son to seek professional help with regard to his anxiety which from what you've said Essendon, although more acute when he sees his mother, is not exclusive to that particular relationship.

Maybe grief counselling would be a good place to start, to enable him to come to terms with the impact the death of his sister has had on him.

The daughter was 9 when she died Janejudge having had leukemia for 3 years.

Janejudge you have posted about not having to take on the responsibility for a parents grief, and that as the son is not the parent, he shouldn't have to act like oneconfused. Where has it been said that either of these things has happened here?

It hasn't but I know a lot of sympathy is often given to the parents and the siblings are generally not offered much sympathy and expected to get on with it. The OP hasn't said how how the daughter was but give the son has only just had a baby, we can only assume he and she were young less than 30 at the time and that is such a traumatic loss. Of course it isn't top trumps though. Everyone was grieving and I do have sympathy for the Mum too. I think Dad should keep on seeing him though

This is a very complex situation, the grandmother had an awful childhood and was abused, so she had major issues to deal with. The illness and subsequent death of her daughter, coping with four young sons was too much to bear. You have to have sympathy for her, her husband could not cope either, how those children must have suffered. In a normal home I would say it’s wrong to just have one parent visit, dreadful for the wife at home, however in these circumstances, which are exceptional, I think they need to look at the bigger picture, get some routine and trust back. The mother must put her son and grandchild before herself, it’s better that the son gets the support from his father, he did nothing wrong as a child. In time he may be able to understand fuller how much his mother was a victim in all this. As someone kept away from my adored gd I know the pain involved, but I always put her first and know we can never have the closeness that we should have, but she has parents that love her, for her mental health it was better than me pushing for access and the rebuffs, unsettling for that little girl I love so much.

It's so important to realise that our children are separate, individual people. Different from us and different from their siblings.

They may not cope with things the same way we do, what works for us may not for them.

It doesn't matter the reasons, you have to take those out for now and understand that son is anxious around mum. Healing herself does not heal him. Her way of healing may not work for him. His issues are separate to hers.

We have a responsibility as parents, even when circumstances are not our fault, even when our memories don't math theirs, how they feel matters. Estrangement is not worse than what led up to it, it is a self defence mechanism. It will be there until it is no longer needed.

Essendon The trauma your family is experiencing is tragic.
I’m so very sorry for the lose of your daughter and the years since when you have all experienced such a nightmare.

I have no idea how I as a mother would react if I were to experience such pain but I’d think out of control and sinking into a pit of despair would about cover it.

Your wife has been to hell and back as have yourself and the rest of the family and I’d imagine it wasn’t easy for her to relive such pain in therapy. She did do that for many years and got a diagnosis. Very brave of her to do that I think. Now she has to face life head on and mend bridges with the help of family and friends.

One of your sons can’t cope with all that’s happened.
Perhaps he would benefit from doing what his mum did explore the reasons in therapy find out why he has reacted to his mum in the way he did. He seems to have been able to forgive you. Not mum. To help him to understand needs exploring. Does he have a partner,friends, in laws that supports him I hope so. His brothers what are their thoughts how are they coping with it all. Are they able to support both mum and brother equally. I do hope so.

You are in the middle of this and seem to be uncomfortable with that. You have seen what your wife went through in therapy I’d imagine and, you have acknowledged your own pain was dysfunctional. So why mum and not dad being estranged by your son might be a question you need answered yourself .

As for contact with your son I do think you need to keep this going you love your wife and your son and can’t switch off that love for either and by showing compassion and love for both might one day resonate with your son and enable him to heal. You are teaching him how to be compassionate by keeping up contact and I’m sure he knows how difficult it is for you to do that.

I hope that your wife can come to accept why you need to have contact with your son. She has shown before that she can face her pain. I hope she can do so again. It’s so sad that she needs to be doing this.

She has suffered so much already it’s tragic that she is still suffering over an estranged son. I’m assuming she’s not seeing her grandson or DIL either so If you don’t mind I’ll keep you all in my prayers that one day your family will heal and accept that we all have failings that need to be forgiven at times.
As a parent we will do what it takes to help our children.
When they are adults it works both ways. I do hope your son see this and gets some help.

The son may never wish to be in contact with his mother. Sometimes estrangement is the answer and is the end solution.

Also Smileless you accuse a lot of DIL from stopping their husbands from having a relationship with their families.

Why is it any different when a wife stops a husband from seeing his children?

You say it's the selfish DIL putting her feelings first? And yet that is exactly what you are suggesting. What is the difference?

You do seem to see things very much from the perspective of the mother Smileless2012, and put her needs before everybody else’s. Children have different sensitivities, and even if the son who has estranged his mother wasn’t singled out by her, her behaviour has clearly affected him very deeply and he needs his father’s ongoing support. He’s the victim, not the perpetrator in this relationship. His father’s dysfunctional behaviours were clearly not of the same magnitude in his mind and he has forgiven him, probably because he had to step up to the plate and care for his sons without much support for a prolonged period. The son may never get over what has happened, and however much his mother wants to repair the relationship, as does his father there’s a chance that is impossible for their son. I really don’t think his father seeing him less is any part of the solution. I wonder whether the other boys can help to put what happened into a different perspective for him?

It's very good of you to come back with some more information especially about such a heart breaking situation Essendon.

I thought as Bluebell has, that it's interesting that your son has estranged his mother a a result of you both understandably struggling with this terrible loss. You have said that you "used dysfunctional behaviours to cover the pain" and yet he is prepared to see you and for you to see his child.

We cannot undo what was done in the past and I think it's very sad that despite the time and effort your wife has put into her recovery, that there appears to be a lack of understanding and/or forgiveness on your son's part. Especially as he is also experiencing "major anxiety".

"the plate is still broken" but that does not mean it cannot be repaired if there is sufficient love, willingness and an attempt to understand the reasons for the past.

Has your son sought any help for his own mental anxiety? He needs to address this or he will allow it to further damage his relationship with mother and himself. If his mother's mental health and associated behaviour problems are his reasons for estranging her, he needs to understand that this own are just as damaging to the relationship.

He could be projecting his own feelings of anger, frustration and pain at the loss of his sister onto your wife, rather than facing them and this is where counselling could prove to be invaluable.

His expectations of his mother during that terrible time, to provide him with all the love, comfort, understanding and support he desperately needed may have been far greater than his expectations of you. This could explain why he has 'forgiven' you and is unable to 'forgive' his mother. Again, this is where counselling could be extremely beneficial.

I think it may be worth you considering that while you continue to visit with your son and GC, it may make it 'easier' for your son to ignore the problems he has with his mother, rather than being proactive in finding a way to try and resolve them.

Perhaps having regular loving and supportive contact with your son but fewer visits would be away forward with an honest explanation why you make that decision, if you do.

Victim and victimised have different meanings and once again I feel that use of word victimised is inappropriate. Understandably, both parents' ability to parent appropriately was affected by this terrible tragedy.

There is still no suggestion that the OP's wife singled out this son for cruel and unjust behaviour; that is being victimised. It does look though as if this son is victimising his mother. Unable to get past and forgive her fallibility despite having been able to do so with his father.

I agree with the above post. I think it’s important that you maintain the current relationship with your son and GC.

It seems that your son would have been quite young when your daughter died, (commiserations to you all for that), and it must have seemed to him, at a young age, that he’d lost his sister (physically), and then lost his parents emotionally. Obviously, for whatever reason, he has found it easier to”forgive” you than he has his mother.

I know that a child bereavement can cause a massive reaction in a family. We lost my baby granddaughter 18 years ago, and the shock and grief rip through a family, often leaving havoc behind.

Your wife couldn’t help how she was, and it’s good that she sought treatment. You said your behaviour was less than ideal, and it’s good that you’ve turned that around. But, if your son still feels anxious at the thought of his mother, then he is still suffering, and needs your support.

I don’t know if he’s had any sort of help to try and assist him in laying the past to rest, and to move on in a healthy emotional way, but that might be an idea for him to consider.

If he can do that, with your support, then he might reach a point where he could have an honest conversation with his mother, where she would need to acknowledge the pain she has caused him, albeit while she was emotionally fragile herself.

In the meantime, I would keep up the actual contact with him and your GC, as if you reduce it, he will feel abandoned all over again. And, to be honest, your grandchild has probably bonded with you, and wouldn’t understand why s/he didn’t see you any more.

It isn’t nice for your wife, but I would imagine, if she’s had treatment, she understands where your son is coming from, and realises this process will take time, going at HIS pace, for them ever to get any sort of relationship going again.

I hope you resolve it, it’s an awful situation for all of you.

Essendon your son needs to heal and you have stated clearly why he can't do that around his mum.

Mum has done her own healing and it took a long time, your son needs time too.

If you break ties with him, he is going to heal away from you both and he may not fogive you for not supporting him through this time.

His childhood has been traumatic, that can be extremely hard to come back from because it is the time of brain development.

When he has come far enough then hopefully he will be able to take steps for you all to heal together. Until then it's very important you maintain a loving relationship with him, if you don't you will victimise him all over again with another parent that is not emotionally available to him which will just repeat his trauma.

Essendon Thanks for coming back
-Also my behaviour gradually deteriorated as l wasn't able to grieve and l used dysfunctional behaviors to cover the pain-

Totally understandable but interesting that your son isn’t “punishing” you, only his mum.

Is there any room for mother and son to have any family counselling
Do the other sons accept their mum? How old were the boys when their sister died? Did you both neglect the boys in your grief I m still not really understanding what happened to cause this huge divide Presumably you were both in such turmoil that you both handled it in ways you wished you hadn’t but why only one being punished ?