Sign for grandchildren

Iam64

It isn’t necessary to have personal knowledge of the Family Courts to understand something of how they operate.
Care proceedings have increased by 50% during the pandemic. The Courts are struggling already. I can see no advantage in adding to this unsustainable workload by giving grandparents, or anyone else, the ‘right’ to make an application.

It’s rare for people to need to make application, most parents meet with the Cafcass worker, or mediator and avoid Court by reaching agreements.

Children ‘suffer emotionally’ by Court proceedings. Stress, anxiety before meeting with the Cafcass officer or social worker. Often the children have been coached in what to say, they don’t want to add to the stress their parents are exhibiting. If ‘all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child’, there would be no need for the suggestion grandparents ‘rights’ should be enshrined in law

Yes, I had to deal with FCs in my job.

As you say, they are overburdened anyway (especially post Covid), and quite formal, with the children and adults needing legal representation.

Reports have to be submitted after interviewing all parties, and it’s all stress.

As many estranged fathers (usually), would confirm, it’s also very expensive, especially if people won’t comply with the court order.

Mediation might be an answer for some, but court action just isn’t going to work for most.

There is already a system in place for grandparents, and others, to ask for legal access, via the court, usually only for exceptional circumstances, and I don’t know the success rate.

Best left as it is, in my view. This will put unacceptable stress on children.

It is true that when someone cannot control you, they will try to run you down to others in an attempt to isolate you Violetsky Unfortunately I am only too familiar with this type of behaviour, from my upbringing and also my son tried really hard to talk me out of my beliefs and opinions. He only estranged me when he failed to control me.

I have had a lot of controlling relationships in my past and I recognise it when I see it. I am an intelligent person, with my own mind and I am well capable of making an informed decision by weighing up all the facts for myself. If that makes me a threat, so be it.

OnwardandUpward I agree

Then there is scapegoating. When things are going well in an abusers life they don't need an emotional punchbag but when things are going wrong they need someone to take it out on.

I know that's an awful way to have to think but it's so hard to prove because their victims have been conditioned to believe they deserve it and when they finally start to break free of that there is no way of proving it.

I will not argue with his "reality" or attempt to convince him of my validity, which he may be expecting me to do "because it's Christmas". Indeed if I did try to change his mind, it would only compound his beliefs more.

Instead I will have a peaceful Christmas and believe that everything happens for a reason. Everyone who knows me knows the truth, so I have other kids in the family to enjoy time with. What will be, will be.

I am concerned for my GC because of my son's current situation, which I am not going to talk about on a public forum. He believes I am unsafe to be around, but that's because of his MH , paranoia and beliefs around the covid jab.

Because he believes those things, those things are his reality. We become what we think about.

I can only hope that my GC are completely oblivious to anything undesirable and unhealthy. There would be no point in forcing contact because he would become stressed and it would harm his MH even more, which in turn would impact on my GC.

In time I hope he will get the support he clearly needs and although he is currently unmedicated for his condition, I hope for the best.

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

Yes, I understand how it works. I just think it’s a terrible idea. It puts the parents under undo stress.

I think estrangement is incredibly sad. However, I firmly believe that safe caring parents have the right to raise their children the way they want.

It’s very, very said when that means that good loving grandparents lose out. But it also means parents get to choose to cut out people who they don’t deem as safe and loving.

As always, abusive/chaotic cases are a separate kettle of fish.

It isn’t necessary to have personal knowledge of the Family Courts to understand something of how they operate.
Care proceedings have increased by 50% during the pandemic. The Courts are struggling already. I can see no advantage in adding to this unsustainable workload by giving grandparents, or anyone else, the ‘right’ to make an application.

It’s rare for people to need to make application, most parents meet with the Cafcass worker, or mediator and avoid Court by reaching agreements.

Children ‘suffer emotionally’ by Court proceedings. Stress, anxiety before meeting with the Cafcass officer or social worker. Often the children have been coached in what to say, they don’t want to add to the stress their parents are exhibiting. If ‘all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child’, there would be no need for the suggestion grandparents ‘rights’ should be enshrined in law

Is personal experience necessarily a good thing trisher? It seems to me that for some, their personal experiences prevent them from seeing an issue such as this from another perspective.

I never talk about my personal situation and experiences on on line forums such as this and providing I can offer a reasonable point of view, which I believe I have done, I don't think it is relevant. My imagination or indeed lack of one is also irrelevant.

Children will only be asked, if they are age appropriate. Any reasonable and loving parent and grandparent, putting the best interests of a child first, would not allow their child to feel guilty and upset for speaking honestly.

A child would only feel they were choosing between their parents and their grandparents if either made them feel that way.

I don't agree that a child would "suffer emotionally every time they meet" with their grandparents, providing all the adults involved put their personal grievances to one side and prioritise the child.

Agedp1953

Thank you for responding Hithere. Grandchildren growing up and priorities changing for me isn't an issue here as this is about parents stopping the relationship their children have with grandparents.

The same with "anybody can just stop talking to anybody". It seems to me that there are a lot of grandparents here whose adult child has done this and as a consequence their grandchildren are no longer allowed to see them or have any contact with them.

This is what this petition is concerned with, safe and established relationships being broken for this reason, not because parents have found out or suspect that the relationship isn't safe.

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

That's right MercuryQueen and I think you will find that that was posted because someone had already said they hadn't signed because they saw children as the priority.

For me it is the inability of all the adults concerned, parents and grandparents that can result in a case going to court. Not just the responsibility of the grandparents. They will be the ones who go to court but the intransigence of the parents will be why.

A very interesting discussion.

I'm very sorry to read about your situation OnwardandUpward. A sad but good example I think of how some parents are prepared to treat their parents and children if they don't get their own way.

I do wonder have you any experience of what is involved in a family matter going to court? You seem to imagine some sort of perfect sitution where GPs turn up say they want to continue a relationship and are granted permission (or not). The reality will involve solicitors being appointed as both parents and GPs dig in and views become even more entrenched. As these opposing views are expressed the child will be asked for their views and will have to choose, to upset either their parents or their GPs. It's not a decision that any child should be asked to make. Childen should undoubtedly be able to express their views and give their opinions but that is completely different to having to choose.
Even if the GP gets the contact they want the child will still suffer emotionally every time they meet.

Thank you for responding Hithere. Grandchildren growing up and priorities changing for me isn't an issue here as this is about parents stopping the relationship their children have with grandparents.

The same with "anybody can just stop talking to anybody". It seems to me that there are a lot of grandparents here whose adult child has done this and as a consequence their grandchildren are no longer allowed to see them or have any contact with them.

This is what this petition is concerned with, safe and established relationships being broken for this reason, not because parents have found out or suspect that the relationship isn't safe.

Blanket leave to go to court is just that Summerlove. It just means that grandparents wouldn't have to ask if they can go to court. That would be the only thing that would change. It doesn't mean that it would be any easier for them to get contact when the case goes to court.

That's right MercuryQueen and I think you will find that that was posted because someone had already said they hadn't signed because they saw children as the priority.

For me it is the inability of all the adults concerned, parents and grandparents that can result in a case going to court. Not just the responsibility of the grandparents. They will be the ones who go to court but the intransigence of the parents will be why.

A very interesting discussion.

I'm very sorry to read about your situation OnwardandUpward. A sad but good example I think of how some parents are prepared to treat their parents and children if they don't get their own way.

Granniesunite

She was a very lucky lady to have had such a kind caring daughter*DL*and taken care of when she most needed it.
You are such a good role model for your children and it sounds as if you did more than your best for her.
Perhaps it was your dad that loved you enough and that love enabled you to show such compassion to your mum. ? .

Thank you, but I was lucky in lots of ways. I had my dad, my maternal grandmother, who I was very close to, and lots of extended family and friends.

Mum was great in many ways. I was never abused, was well fed, clean, holidays, lovely Christmas’s etc. I just lacked having a mum I could talk to about anything, who criticised me constantly, and who never seemed to have a good word for me.

Other children have it much worse.

I don’t actually think about her much now, but she died 10 years ago this Boxing Day, and I suppose it’s that time of the year anyway.

Best wishes.

Agedp1953

Just noticed a post from MercuryQueen saying the same thing, not signing because it is the children who are the priority.

Not sure why it's necessary for anyone to suggest that people who do sign don't see the children as a priority.

Someone stated they signed b/c they see children as the priority.

I stated that I would never sign because I see children as the priority in response. Flip side of the coin, if you will.

I still don't understand how putting the parents through a court battle and the myriad of issues that go along with it is in the best interest of the child.

Here we go again!

These younger generations are not responsible for our happiness but to me this is like taking that happiness from an innocent child to give it to a grandparent because the happiness of the grandchild in this scenario is never guaranteed.

Agedp1953

It's not a question of not understanding why some choose not to sign. Those reasons have been given as have the reasons for those who have signed VioletSky.

Having a different point of view and disagreeing doesn't mean there is a lack of understanding. I have been catching up on the posts here and haven't seen anyone say that anyone is playing games or an attempt to silence anyone.

I did ask earlier why anyone would want to disrupt or end an existing safe and established relationship between children and their grandparents and no one has answered.

No one here would.

But giving blanket leave yo arrange court ordered visitation is not how you fix that

OnwardandUpward you have reminded me of something. I was feeling a bit sorry for your son and his obvious mental health issues then I remembered something.

My mother used to genuinely believe she could wish others harm and it would come true. When ever anything bad happened to someone she didn't like she would give herself the credit for it.

I suppose that maybe this is what is meant by "delusions of grandeur".

Obviously mental health issues do not excuse abuse, ever. I sometimes feel sorry for my mother too though. It cannot be a happy existence.

Agedp1953

It's not a question of not understanding why some choose not to sign. Those reasons have been given as have the reasons for those who have signed VioletSky.

Having a different point of view and disagreeing doesn't mean there is a lack of understanding. I have been catching up on the posts here and haven't seen anyone say that anyone is playing games or an attempt to silence anyone.

I did ask earlier why anyone would want to disrupt or end an existing safe and established relationship between children and their grandparents and no one has answered.

My son was jealous of me having a relationship with anyone who wasn't him. He disliked me being friends with anyone, or getting along with his partner. I asked him once if he would rather have arguing and he said "YES!"

I had a good relationship with my DiL and also my son's two girlfriends before her, but he wanted me to be horrible to them and I refused. He has been controlling and also has paranoia and Mental Health problems which he doesn't accept help with. He also was taking drugs, which he may be still doing and trying to hide?

He also threatened me that if I had the covid jab he would not have anything to do with me, believing me to be contaminated. He said that my DNA was not compatible with his any more.

These are reasons why a safe and established relationship was ended. Because of my covid status, I was no longer deemed "safe" to be around. It could be that he saw me as dispensable because by then he had to pay his own rent and bills so I wasn't useful to him anymore and used the covid jab as leverage? I don't really know, but it seems that way, I know many parents have suffered because of covid differences.

"I did ask earlier why anyone would want to disrupt or end an existing safe and established relationship between children and their grandparents and no one has answered."

Maybe both parties do not agree on the relationship being establish and/or safe
One party sees red flags the other one denies

Moving also disrupts a relationship, unfortunately it is a fact of life (job related, goals for the future, etc)

Grandchildren grow up and their priorities change

Anybody can just stop talking to anybody, just because.

So many many reasons

That's sort of a prime example of how people don't see what they don't want to.

That's why abusers win too often

It's not a question of not understanding why some choose not to sign. Those reasons have been given as have the reasons for those who have signed VioletSky.

Having a different point of view and disagreeing doesn't mean there is a lack of understanding. I have been catching up on the posts here and haven't seen anyone say that anyone is playing games or an attempt to silence anyone.

I did ask earlier why anyone would want to disrupt or end an existing safe and established relationship between children and their grandparents and no one has answered.

My dad had court ordered access, every other weekend and every other Christmas.

I could tell you a thousand stories of how I was punished for it from as young as I can remember.

You can call me biased or playing games or whatever you think might silence me so that everyone can pretend this is all hearts and flowers and skipping off into the sunset with the grandchildren but....

The truth is that I just have too much experience of the dangerous adults that exist out there and some of them wear their disguises so well that when you try to ask for help, no one believes you because they turned you into an anxious frightened mess.

MissAdventure

The grandma in the original petition was not charged with harassment.
The grandparents of the two children who were killed in their parents' custody were given the same treatment.
Cut out of the childrens' lives.
My neighbour was warned not to harass her son.
Why? Because he didn't want her involvement in his life in case it exposed what his children were going through.
She has a note like that, passed to her by the oldest grandaughter, who has always, and still sees her.

How would access change that?

Those poor children would have been punished for it.

You have to understand how abusers operate

Agedp1953

I agree with you Summerlove which is why I posted to respond to VioletSky when she said "those who sign are doing so for the sake of the children".

Would you not agree that that suggests those who do sign are not acting for the sake of the children? It came across to me like that which is why I responded the way I did.

I've already said that I don't think those who sign are understanding the reasons not to so no, that's not what I meant. I say what I mean.

apologies I missed a word out when quoting VioletSky, she posted "those who wont sign ........".

Just noticed a post from MercuryQueen saying the same thing, not signing because it is the children who are the priority.

Not sure why it's necessary for anyone to suggest that people who do sign don't see the children as a priority.